Annoying lame security scripts

In Second Life you don't own the airspace above your land. There is one function built into the system that allow you to ban people from your land. Just take look how far those barriers extend. This is the space you own. And this is where battle for land owner rights should take place. Mmmm, yes. You think Linden Lab let you freely use this standard function to protect that space that you really own? Oh no! Far from that! One griefer just need buy parcel of land behind yours and they will force you grant access. I hope that make you understand my point a little. When you have been forced to allow griefers into your land (on ground level) only to have them litter your land with insulting signs, then one week later get shot down from somebody's land at 40m altitute and without warning (and only realize after several shot downs and client crash what actually caused it) you may see some contradiction, wouldn't you?



In Second Life the world is your country and the TOS is the laws.



The analogy work very well



Sale signs don't shoot down people. They don't actively do anything to avatars.



Teleporting people IMHO breaks the rules. It is pvp abuse.



I prevented a select few of annoying individuals access to the space I own, which is space market by standard ban function provided by Linden Lab. I never teleport people or made it impossible for people traverse my land. You are confusing banning people from my private space with shooting people or preventing people from fly across my land.



It really is one pity I don't dislike you Please be a bit mean or something, then I could put shoot-down-Siggy-device on all my land and, well, any bet with you that 2 days later you would change mind Seriously, there is reason why Linden Lab made land banning barriers only extend to certain altitute. People need be able to traverse land and airspace of sims is not private place. Linden have been quite tolerant by not act on people who "secure" their flying kinky rooms above clouds with scripts that give warning, maybe count down for 10 seconds and then teleport you away. Those scripts give enough time to fly away or cross the land and, well, those kinky rooms are usually way above normal flight paths. But to insta teleport people home without warning and time to get away is griefing.

THANK YOU Kris, I couldnt say this any better or agree with this any more.

Hmmm when it's been stated many times that I do own it? If someone builds anywhere in my parcel I can return objects - so I guess by your argument -- I do own it.

also your 'grant access' scenario is covered by the TOS already thus it would be violation - so I guess I don't see any contradiction.

If somone litters your land with signs, the return function handles that as well - but thats a seperate issue thats been covered in another thread.

If someone wishes to shoot you down over their land - again - they are entitled to do so.



Which is why I clearly stated 'within the boundries of the TOS.
And even with that one word non-clarification - your analogy still doesn't work.
Show me in the TOS where it says I can't return a plane flying over my land? because I can... and I can shoot everyone that lands too if I want :

Personally - I'm not an asshole like that - but such things HAVE been done..

If you leave a prim in the airspace over my land it will be auto returned within 30 minutes... so the self same tools could be said to invalidate your claim.



For sales signs and your knack for terraforming more than once had certain people in the community snapping at your heels - and through it I was the first to say 'what you do on your land is your business provided it doesn't break the TOS.... which neither of these cases do... And just saying several times 'it's a PVP violation' doesn't make it so - if you wish to argue that point you are going to have show HOW it is, and if possible show a precident where someone has been told it is.

But I would imagine that someone who has been in the situation of having others try and dictate what they can and can't build on their land would see the point a little clearer - the self same rights and arguments were used there too - the only difference here is that it's something that you don't like.



I'm not confusing anything - the rights are one in the same... the right to build and do whatever you like on property you own - provided it doesn't break the TOS.

Just as it's your right to leave signs and terraform your own land.

Someone on my land is my guest and subject to my rules - thats the way it is.
Likewise for your land.



Honesty - and I've said this to many people - I really don't care who likes me and who doesn't, it won't effect my views, my outlook, or what I do in SL one jot.. But I'll wait for a Linden to say why the barriers extend x far over a build and get such info from the horses mouth. Personally I think it would be good to have access to all the security features that islands to - and I'd like to see folks a lil more polite with their scripting.

But what I like and what I wan't have no bearing really on what they are allowed to do.

But how much money would you like to lay on that bet? I have been Tported home in the past and although it is an inconvenience - I've never registered more than minor annoyance..

So lets put your money where you mouth is? 10,000 lindens says that you can put up any ole script on your land that targets / teleports / does whatever WITHIN THE CONFINES OF YOUR LAND.. and not one single report will the lindens get.. why? because I think it's a non-issue.

I've never reported such things in the past because I don't think they are a violation - I have reported listening devices and other things that WERE violations before though.

Again, I think it's overkill, inconvenient, and probably not the best way to make friends and influence people -- but you being kicked off someone elses land, I don't see that as a violation.. and what a lot of people are overlooking is that griefing is to purposely cause grief and aggrivation - without actually TALKING to the people doing this you can't divine thier intent.

Siggy.

Ok, why the HELL do people care if someone is on your land? If you set your land to no create, no edit, and all your objects no one can mess with, what harm can be done but give you dwell. I love to come online and see people just "haning out" in my store (obviously ok) and my house. They cant cause any harm...so stop crying yea????

Oh well, my 2 cents...not worth that much I dont think.


RED BARS SUCK...what can people do??? Set your stuff to group or something to distinguish and return all every 5 min...Home security for booting people is in the pie chart...but sure have some neat confinement scripts if you want only on command...but damn...TP home??? PSSSSHHH

Justin

I couldn't care who is on mine - apart from a handful of pushgun happy folks that I don't particularly like -- but for others, again, it's not up to you.

Someone wants noone there - that's their right. Even if you or I don't understand why.

And what the entire issue boils down to is does player x get to dictate what player y builds on their land at all?

I would say that so long as it's within the rules of the game - they don't.

Others may disagree.

SIggy.

I hand such a script on my sim in Bowness (the really mean kind). I recently had a flyer by in a custom hot air balloon not only get tossed back home and crashed but, she lost her balloon . Needless to say I still feel awfull for this happening. I have removed the script and dont plan on using again. I do however use a kick list script. This will ban only those who have deserved to be put on it in the first place and its not so mean just bounce ya around alittle. *thinks outloud* what if Anshe and I had kick list script on every plot we own. hmmmm what hell would that be to navigate through. lol just kidding

Mmmm, I would take you up on this one. The only problem is to really find out would have to make many people unhappy. I would make any bet that the very moment I put such device on my land and shoot people to their home point all hell break loose on these forums and Linden Lab get flooded with e-mails and abuse reports. And, yes, I am convinced it violate TOS.

Just imagine everybody in one telehub sim uses such device. It would make all land around that sim inaccessible. The need of people to traverse your land to get to other land limits your ownership right in that the right of people to get to their land has priority. So I do think that preventing people fly across your land (on altitute above the ban bars) is TOS violation.

Shooting down people without warning or time to leave is IMHO another TOS violation as it happen before people even have chance to notice they are in pvp area. It is also griefing because it is 100% unnecessary in order to secure land.

Private island sims are diffferent story. Nobody need to cross them to get to other land and people know that those sims have their own rules.

Mmmm, I think I will e-mail Linden and ask if I am now allowed to shoot down people in airspace above my land Then we should know...

I leave for a week and this thread is STILL going? Hot daym!

Okay, I suppose this time I'll try for a less tongue-in-cheek response.

...

The reality of SL is so odd because our own preconceived notions of what reality should be is based on real life experience, i.e. physics and the laws of science.

In the real world, we can't just magically sense people within 96 meters and teleport them across the world. Because we can't do that, we don't expect it in SL. Further, since we don't expect it, we are often frustrated when some basic expectations are shattered by the reality in SL.

The fact is that SL provides an illusion to RL in many respects, but the scripting language allows us to essentially break any aspect. And rightly so. Like a website, there should be no restriction to what the owner can do, no impedement to freedom of speech, aside from the usual exceptions and not interfering with neighbors.

Ergo, if your neighbors complain that your script is impeding people from even reaching their land in a reasonable manner, then the script needs to be altered or removed. Conversely, if your neighbors have no problem with your security scripts, then by all means, ban away.

This doesn't mean that it's not cool and polite to do it, for certain. Allowing "headroom" to fly over, or a certain timer and/or other warning before booting is polite. But in no way do we have any right or ethical reason to enforce it.

The real problem is that of the Internet - anonymity breeds rudeness. The only effective way to combat this is by reputation. Considering our reputation was acknowledged months and months ago by Linden Lab to be broken, our other option is by gathering together as neighbors.

Private sims are obviously the simplest solution, and ultimately when SL takes off into the Metaverse and sim software open-sourced, will probably set the standard as the unit of space. There are literally a couple of chartered communities, and they work. Neualtenburg is another attempt to bring unified community. Varney is an example of a residential / light commercial sim where landowners have informally gathered.

But overall, the current solution is profoundly simple: Go out and meet the neighbors.
Like RL, before you move into a community, you should find out about the community.
When you move in, you should take time to IM your neighbors, meet them, talk with them, and then when you have concerns you can speak to them as neighbors, not strangers.

Where does that leave you in your situation, Anshe? If it's your neighbor, file an abuse report. If not, it's their land, and while it may be rude, you're going to have to just deal.

Of course I filed abuse report after talking to the person did not help. Other people did as well and by now at least in Grizledale the device has been removed.

I just sent e-mail to Linden Lab. I asked them wether or not residents are allowed to use such shoot down scripts on their land. So my solution is simple:

If answer is "NO" and that this indeed violate TOS then problem is solved and my assumption was right.

Otherwise if answer is "YES" and using such script is ok then I am going solve this problem and beat people with their own weapon. In that case, if somebody shoots down innocent people using scripts then I will shoot that same person down on all of my land.

Randomly shooting people without warning is called "random player killing". In Shadowbane sometimes we had random player killers who enjoyed themselves very well shooting people without warning, often killing poor newbies and ruining their fun. Well, they usually did this until I decided to call my boys and visit their town You can look at result here: Anshe visiting the player killers. Mmmm, yes. If Linden Lab really would allow killer scripts and some people want become PKer then they can have it. Then we see who wins.

But I think it is obvious that answer of Linden will be one clear "NO".

I think in order to solve the problem you need to understand what the problem is, and this is where the difference of opinion is. This leads us to different conclusions.

One point I've brought up several times, but hasn't been acknowledged is that these scripts have a finite range - the maximum range of a sensor is approximately 90m - therefore it is possible to fly over it - even if multiple instances are there, there is a finite area that can be covered.

If Anshe and Blue wished to pepper their land holdings with these, again, I wouldn't have a problem with it - it's thier land and they can do as they please so long as it doesn't break the TOS.

If someone wished to shoot someone else down on their own land - that is totally ok - if they came onto YOUR land and started shooting you - or if their scripts and other antics spilled over onto adjacent properties, THEN you would have a pvp violation.

In the end though you're addressing the wrong problem - the problem isn't what someone chooses to have on their land - the problem is getting from point A to point B unhindered.

If you wanted a real solution - rather than trying to dictate what others can build, perhaps you should be petitioning for point to point teleporting. We used to have it in 1.0 - so the concept is not impossible... that would solve your travel problems and leave landowners rights intact.

But something tells me there are certain people that wouldn't be great fans of that idea - even if it solves the problem absolutely

Siggy.

Again - you're not giving me any reason other than 'I don't like it' - no real reason or precident - and thus I'm finding it hard to see your side of it.

On the subject of it being rude and inconvenient - I am in total agreeance - but unfortunately that isn't against the rules.

You say it is greifing - because you beleive that it is unecessary - this is your opinion, and without actually hearing from people who are doing it, and hearing the reasons for it, then this is speculation as you can't know their intent.


The implied threat of me being bounced off all your land didn't work because I called your bluff - because at the heart of it, I still beleive it's your right to do as you please.

And if you wanted to turn all the land you own into a massive battleground - that is your right - I don't think you will though, because to be quite honest I think it's just a strongarm tactic based on owning a lot of land - I'll lay money that it's a bluff too.

Siggy.

oh great 90 meters. and if you put it 90 meters off the ground it becomes 180.
I dont know if you have any idea on how flying up 180 meters can be unconfortable.
Maybe i can help you: come to my shop, it's 60 meters tall. Right, "just" 60 meters, and when you fly up to the top the gravity already drags you down if you don't have ant fly aids. Now imagine it 3 times taller.
You really want us to believe that most people normally fly over that altitude? most of them wouldnt even see the ground from there.

Moreover killer script have normally no warning, so people that fly into them have normally NO IDEA of their existance. The fact that they end at 180 metres is totally marginal, since no one flies over that altitude normally.
This results in TOTALLY unwarranted attack thus a kinda obvious TOS violation.

If it's so obvious then you won't have any problems showing me where in the TOS it states that you can't do it.

Please point out, in the TOS, where it says I must give you warning to remove you from a plot of land that I own.

Seeing how I usually fly around SL at around 200m unnassisted I have ever idea how flying up works.

But you still haven't said how it is anything other than inconvenient. On the other hand I've cited many cases of people not likeing what others have put on their land, and how they were within their rights to do it.

The problem is that you don't HAVE to go through this players plot - if you DID then you would have grounds to have it removed (because that IS a violation) - if it spills over onto someone elses land, likewise, that would be abuse.

The same right that lets them build what they want is the self same one that stops someone from coming to you and saying 'your shop ruins my view -- remove it'..

Siggy.

To better restate my main point:

We should stop thinking of land simply as "land" and more like webspace.

In a website, the only limiting factor is, and should be, law: no kiddie porn, no advocating or inciting to commit crime, no libel, etc. Otherwise, anything goes.

By virtue of the inherent nature of 3-D virtual land, we add one, and only one, additional factor: neighbors. Thou shalt cooperate with your neighbor or thou shalt move.

I do agree that people should be HELPED with understanding the basics of there scripts, example if(llOverMyLand(llDetectedKey(i)) == TRUE).

BUT I totaly disagree with taking away freedom.

"IF" someone is using a "TP EVERYONE ELSE BUT ME HOME" script.
They eather
A. Have some reason for it.
B. Dont realize exactly what there script is doing.
C. are trying to anger people.

for A. the reasons could be.
There is something there working on on there land that they do not want anyone else to see at all.
Its an area not intended for avatars. example, some rpg game where that is an instant kill zone,
Or just cause they freaken want to because its there land.

For B. They were not trying to cause trouble and most likely will gladly fix/remove there script if someone just politly tells them, hey I was flying at 250 M and got tpd home.
(ive had this happen and had no trouble at all with this, theres no reason for anger as it is just nothing more than a few clicks I had to redo, h dear god no!
I imd the owner of land simply telling him where i was when his script tpd me home and suggested that there should be a few second delay/or a warning.
Then the owner simply didnt know how to fix the script so I helped.
Problem solved.

and then C.
Well this isnt really an issue eather. because by getting angry you are allowing them to win.
AND there are so many other things that can be done if in fact you do give in and become angry,
But most likely, if someone is tping everyone home, and just doing it out of spite or intending to cause problems, they are not liked by anyone else anyway.
In fact there probably very disliked by a lot of people.

So in closing,
==== do not read below this line if you do not want to experience sarcasm====

If your suggestion to destroy this function of lsl had passed, What about setting a max attachment prim limit. aka.. prim hair. Its annoying to have a drop in fps when i look in the general direction of some avatar. Should that be abuse as well?

Or what about not allowing terraforming, I personaly dislike seeing land be vastly flattend simply because people want to build large structures and dont want to be creative with hills and such.

Oh I know this would be a great fix. Please LL remove llSay, llWhisper, and llShout.
I hate getting messages in chat from objects.

I guess it depends on the amount of flying one do, and the reason, how annoying one find this.

I guess if someone who made clothes now and then got some of his/her textures deleted randomly or some vendors changed the prices by themselves, they might find it annoying to.

I can see that people do not want people to access their land, fine with me, so then block entrance. Blocking entarnce would simply mean you cannot enter and the action would take place only on the land, but when I get thrown home or crash, the landowner do not perform action only on his land, but do things to my avatar that affects a wide area. If I get teleported home , to lets say 6000 meters away, his scripts affects me even on my land, since I cannot stop the teleporting immediatly outside his border but is transported all the way to my home location.

I try to fly over the entire SL daily. I have a system how I do it. I put up sun, take out fog, water, trees etc. I fly at 250 300m. After a few crashes due to griefing scripts I tend to get annoyed, since I do not see any point with these scripts. Trying to find the excat location where one was killed, yes killed, refering here to one log in message, is anything but easy.

I know some people tend to defend what they call freedom eg doing things just because one can, without actually having a reason to do so, but they often forget that by doing things just because it is not specificly stated one cannot do, one might hurt the freedom of others badly.

I find the high prim hairs annoying also, they freeze up my PC sometimes for a minute or more. In this case I do not think a prim limit rule would help so much though as I understand the shape is of more importance.

I hate rules in general. That is why I think it is very sad that rules have to be made just because a few individuals lack common sense. If everyone would at least try to think, how would I feel if someone would do this to me, and act according to that, I doubt we would need many rules at all. Unfortunatly some people are simply selfish or pure evil, I do not know why, maybe they think it makes them cool. I have a feeling though that these people who has a need to grief are just cowards in RL. It is so easy to play cool when can hide behind anonymity and nobody can spank you through the PC.
Come visit me RL and be a griefer if you dare

I once made a much different security script at my old store. When someone landed on my land, they were instantly boxed in. Stuck, the only to get out was to TP back home. I only used it for an hour or so and had fun watching a couple people get trapped. I quickly dismantled it because I dont think it would have been too good for business.