Annoying lame security scripts

Well if it must - then please say why, how, and where in the TOS it is applicable -- otherwise you are saying 'it must, because I don't like it'.

Once again - you are not getting killed - you are being sent home.

Also - a sensor has a maximum range of around 90m. even if someone were to cover their entire land with them there is a finite area they could send you home from.



No - because it is illegal to own mines... if I were to compare it to real life (and I wouldn't do so seriously because RL to SL analogies constantly fail) I'll use a very actual example - if for nothing else than to show why they don't work:

Up until very recently I had a dog that would tear your throat out and rip off your nuts if you even set foot in my yard. No doubt - that is what it would do.

I am not required by law to display 'beware of the dog' on my fence.

If you trespassed on my property you would be attacked... and you would be in the wrong.

In fact if you stood on my property in RL and I were to pull out a gun and shoot you dead - I am in the right (at least here).



as is your perogative -- all I would suggest is that if you want to fight an ass by being an ass -- cover your ass -- make sure that your scripts ONLY effect people who are on your 16 x 16m plots..



Unlike you, I'm not going to try and fathom or judge why - I cannot read their minds, as assuming I could would be arrogant in the extreme.

I may not agree with what they are doing - but I will defend to the bitter end their right to do so.

Siggy.

I can see that we will not be able to agree on this issue no matter how hard we try LOL.

I will not defend griefing and if you wish to do so you have the right to do it.

Beeing sent home equals beeing killed in SL as far as I know.

I do not know in what kind of nazi country you life in, but at least here we have respect for human life.
Anyone can walk on anyones land providing one do not do damage. Exception is the immediate area round the house, where you cannot camp or pick berries.
Even if someone bothers you in your own house you are not allowed to use to much violence to protect yourself eg, someone calls you asshole and you shoot him. it is not in proposition.

We cannot even shoot down planes that cross over houses here, maybe there you can?

I will not change my mind on this, I think people can do on their land what they wish as long as they do not harm others, but since flying over peoples land is a thing we need to do, and beeing killed without a warning doing it, i consider it to be agains the TOS.

If one could clearly see where the griefers live and that way could fly around the lamers, it would be different, but since they each time surprise us it can be compared to a mine, which I belive to be against TOS

Au contraire - I don't defend greifing - but your calling it doesn't make it so.. They are sending you home. Which is being Tported home -- in damage enabled land if your 'health' goes to 0 you are teleported home.. There is no 'death' in SL.



Although I'm not a citizen - I live in the united states..
The same country that SL resides in. I'm sure someone will take umbrage to your calling their homeland a nazi country with no respect for human life.

I, however, will only ask if you know what Godwins Law is..



People can do on their land as they wish.... so long as? No no no - no 'so long as' you have absolutely NO say in what they do....

You don't NEED to fly over someones land - you can fly around it, high high above it, tport around it! if you were landlocked in your own plot THEN there would be a TOS violation..

As it stands you are saying that 'people can do whatever they like on their land --- so long as it's not something I don't like' -- and that my friend is utterly wrong

Planes in RL - AV's in SL ... shooting down compared to tporting them home.. a tport script to a mine? this is like comparing Apples to... .to.... Dustmites?

Besides, if I script a mine and put it on my land -- guess what... it's within the TOS!

I'm not asking you to change your mind on it - It's your opinion and your entitled to it - I just hope that my points will soften the blow a little for when you're told this is not against the TOS and not greifing.


I can boil everything I'm saying down into a couple of very simple points:

1) I have the right to do whatever I like on my land - so long as I do not violate the terms of service... irrespective of what you like or don't like.

2) No player has the right to dictate what I do on my land -- they are within their rights to neg rate me for my building, my behavior, or my appearance, if they like - and they are within their rights to file a report if they beleive they have been wronged. But thats it I'm afraid.


Again I'll say it -- I fly,swim,jump,boat,fly, and walk all over SL -- and only on very very very rare occasions does this ever happen to me. And when it does - although it inconveniences me, I acknowledge that it's their right to do so...

how can i have the right to kill somebodies av and not to photograph it in compromising situations? on my land!

Dunno J, but you got the right to troll and hijack down pretty well ...
Now we're talkin' apples and rocket ships.

Firstly - who says you can't photograph them on your land so long as it doesn't violate the TOS (and all that entails)

Secondly - What is death in SL? How do you 'kill' and AV

Third - How does teleporting someone home who has entered your parcel violate the TOS?

But eh, I could say white and you'd say black - thats your MO.. if you want to discuss the issue at hand I'm all for it... if you want to discuss a seperate issue - I'll discuss that on a different thread.

Siggy.

I have heard about the Godwin law yes.
I never entendend to say you possible live in the Germany on 30ies though, but you just made it sound very much like a smililar place ( I do not like someone on my land I can kill him. In this case the landowner, acting as goverment, and choose to kill someone based on own decission)

At least we agree that the TOS says that we cannot block access to someones land.
This script IS doing it. I look in my land list for my land, select it, press teleport. I end up at closest hub and start flying towrads my lot. I get send home( crash) time after time doing this. It IS preventing me to reach my land.

Now you will say, fly around at. Yes I would, IF I could see whilst flying that there is a place i cannot fly over, but since I cannot I would have to guess and more or less fly randomly around.
Places that you cannot fly over, should simply be gaps in the grid, act like walls, not be places that act as mines.



Health=0 sounds dead to me.

Yes the shooting a trespasser is a silly law - but it is the law - which is why RL analogies don't work in SL that well.

But it is relevant in a way to SL - someone who owns land is free to make the 'rules' on that land - no matter how silly they seem... including saying 'noone can come on my land'.

What your argument is getting close to saying is that everyone else should have some say in the rules on someone elses land.. Now stop to consider it - would you like somone else trying to decide what you do on your land? Maybe they don't like your build, or a particular texture - or your tastes...

There are avenues you can use to express your displeasure - neg rateing behavior would be appropriate. Of course talking to the people first is always a better way to go.

But if there is no violation of the terms of service - the lindens will be more than likely unable to help you - as there is no 'breaking of the rules'

For emprical evidence of this, go and look over the many threads to do with Club Elite.
This club made a LOT of people in Federal upset - from reports of lag to the point people couldn't move - to not being able to access their land because so many people were at the club.

I don't want to dig up that whole series of arguments again - so best you look it up



But unless it is absolutely preventing you from entering your parcel of land (such as surrounding it) it won't be seen as 'preventing access' - and if it did you would indeed have very valid reasons for appeal that that particular instance be removed.

But the script itself doesn't violate anything - and I couldn't see that as a just case for removing functionality from the scripting language... or even removal of all devices that teleported (even *IF* there were time and resources to find every single one).



Ok Health = 0 is what we say is dead... Even if the land WERE damage enabled, and you were tported home - your health would not be 0.. you have simply been tported home.
So you can't really say 'you are killing an AV'

You *CAN* say that you are being inconvenienced - and I would agree.
You can say that the person doing this is not doing much for the community - and again I would agree.

But there is no real violation that I can see - and unless there is, then they are free to create whatever scripts they like, so long as they don't violate the terms of service.

The reasons they choose to do this are their own - and just because we don't know them isn't really grounds for us to call them stupid or greifers.. They don't wish other people on their land, and they choose the most effective method of doing so.
Whatever the reasons - it is their right..
The best thing to do would be to avoid those plots that teleport you home..

Thats about all I can really say on the subject I guess.. either you see where I'm coming from or you don't.



Siggy.

When you say you can do whatever you want on your land it is not true though. One cannot have any racist, child porn, obscene etc material on ones land even if ot do not grant access to others. These are considered either harmfull or againt the law activities.

So there is rules what one can do or not do.

Sometimes sims get full and one cannot access them. When one fly towrads a sim like that, it simply says you cannot enter. it do not not crash your PC and make you restart SL, go through the debug list disabling Fog, clouds, water etc and putting up the sun again.

I know this is not yet a huge problem, but imagine if lets say 50 percent of the land had these scripts. it would mean nobody could ever get anywhere.
I just do not see why one cannot take actions againt griefing in early state but would have to wait until it gets out of the hands.

Teleport home (crash) everyone who dare to fly over your land, cannot be justified with anything.

If I have a texture on my house that offend my neighbour, I would most likely take it down yes. When I move into a sim I try to edit the land and build so that it blends in the best way in the hood.
If I have something on my land that cause troubles for other users and I am pointed out I have such a thing, I would remove it immediatly.

Annoying other people (on purpose), beeing selfish and griefing has no room in my life.
I just cannot understand why people simply cannot get along. I do not understand what some pepople gain by making life hard for others on purpose.
Maybe it is people who has nothing to say in their RL and needs to somehow get attension virtually. Reminds me a lady who always yelled at us when we was kids and went to the lake to swim. Her husband was very strict and she had nothing to say in their house, so yelling at the kids going to the lake was her way of getting herself heard ( we of course ignored her)

Even though I am not christian I think the rule, treat others as you wish to be treten yourself, is a pretty good thing to live according to.

If someone like to be come to a chat and not see any other people, maybe a private closed island is the right place for them, but not the general sims where others are expected to be in also. Maybe people who deeply hate everyone else simply should stay offline, then nobody virtual would come and distrube them.

Mmmm, maybe there would be one radical solution to wake up some people who are involved with TOS enforcement:

How about somebody provides some of those "security" systems and we put it on all our land and program it to teleport all Linden accounts that try pass over it? Hehehehe. How long after that you think those "security" systems would still exist in SL?

Oh my! I am so mean *hugs each and every liason*

oh common! i put a big green face after that!

the correct answer is the one LL settles on after sifting throught the conflicting abuse reports.

if you can't see how these issues are all related in defining boundaries and territory in informational space, then yes, we can just pass it off as my MO. i really don't want to discuss this at all because it's a big waste of time.

It is pvp abuse.

Okies... elaborate - how is this player vs player abuse, and how does it differ from
sending someone home from an island?

If they are not denying access to anywhere else but their plot, and you choose to go there, how would this differ than say - an auto turret in a damage enabled area (such as Jessie for instance) ?

Siggy.

Siggy,

I have no issues with your concepts but there is much that is not being addressed--not your fault.

1) I agree that if the TOS allow something then it is OK, in fact Linden approved--in essence.

2) The correct argument is what are the limits of social acceptability and if exceeding them is allowed by the TOS, should the TOS be changed.

3) The Lindens need to provide better security capabilities.

My view is that the TP-home is excessive when applied to all and there is no notice. What is needed is notice and ban capability to all altitudes.

My scenario is that I am traveling by flying to a pre-defined destination from a TP-hub. I take a direct path by following the "red column" and without any notice nor way to know and avoid I am TP'ed home. Not even a post notice of why and where making it very hit-and-miss to avoid when I try again to get to my destination. Thus I assert that this is very anti-social behavior. I further assert that this should, as just described, should not be allowed, should be made a TOS violation.

I also think you realize this and from your description of your security script apply it in a reasonable and acceptable (to me) manner. The catch is that not all security scripts are applied in a manner that does not adversely and unfairly affect others.

Bran - I absolutely agree.

Yes it is anti social - and inconsiderate. I also agree that the TOS should be changed as the community grows.

I also agree that better security tools would effectively do away with people using a 'carpet bomb script' because it's either all they have, or all they can make.

I think in essence we're pretty much on the same page.

The main thrust of my discussion is that many people will pick the first option available, such as 'ban this - or nerf this function', and I think that through discussion people can get to the root of the problem, and remove the cause rather than the symptom.
(Such as - for instance - why doesn't a mainlander have access to the new land options that the islands do? - Surely this can't be a huge technical problem?)

As a rule - I'm generally against anything that will take freedoms away from someone. I've admined enough games to watch the slippery slope that leads to, and unfortunately the same freedoms that allow some people to be assholes - are also the same freedoms that allow the rest of us to do a lot of creative stuff and have fun.

Eventually lines can/will/and should be drawn - but hopefully enough thought through debate can be raised that those lines will be well thought out, and not drawn over knee jerk reaction.

After 1.2 I learnt a very valuable lesson - if you think the forum community raises a ruccus over wanting things addressed -- it doesn't light a candle to the shitstorm you get when they get what they ask for

Siggy.

The big difference is that I am not knowingly or willingly trying to enter somebody's land. I am trying to get to some place that lies behind that land and suddenly without warning I find myself at my homepoint because I happened to cross ABOVE some land that somebody has "security" in. To me this is griefing. There is no warning, no fences, no gates just being shot down all of one sudden. It is really like somebody start shoot down airliners that pass above his/her land in RL. One land owner should be able PREVENT people from do something, like enter the land. But to actively FORCE people to e.g. teleport home is not at all tolerable. That is major difference. One is defensive/passive and one is offensively messing around with other people.

Is this a TOS violation? Report it and see if LL agrees it is a TOS violation or not. If it is a TOS violation, case closed, just TOS the people who have these scripts.

If it is not a TOS violation and you feel that it should be start lobbying LL to change the TOS. Develop a proposed change in TOS. But also concurrently consider alternatives and side effects. Consider that such a change in the TOS may need additional SL permissions changes and that such changes need to be lobbied together with the TOS change requests.

It is strange that some people need a specific rule rule for each thing.
If TOS do not specificly say " Do not show your dick to the neighbour living to the west of your house in a PG Sim" some people will probably do it just because the TOS specifcly do not say not to.

TOS should say " Dont be an asshole" and then adult people should be able to act according to that, but no. Some individuals need specific babysitting and guidance step by step to understand the difference between right and wrong. Unfortunatly same as in RL, which has resulted in the most strange laws during history " Dont beat your wife with a belt that is wider than 1.2 inch on a Sunday if Moon is not covered with purple clouds, whetever etc...

Maybe SL do not need a Teen grid but a Griefer grid, where people could grief eachother and argue if TOS speficly probhited me to have a script that undressed your avatar and teleported it to a specific location in a specific PG Sim.

You got that right, welcome to the real world, accept it, learn to deal with it.

Its kinda simple. When someone shoots at you with a weapon without warning it is PvP abuse, tearing down all the frills someone is affetting you with a script contained in a prim without asking you permission.
When someone shots you down with his home security it's exactly the same thing. Someone affetting you with a script contained in a prim without asking permission.
It's EXACTLY the same thing, so i dont see any reason for one being PvP abuse and the other not being PvP abuse.
The only difference is that the security script is totally random and kills everyone, so, if possible, it's even more foolish to use.
And siggy, if you are against limiting someone's freedom, what about the freedom of someone that is normally flying from one spot to another? HIS freedom is less freedom of the one of a little wannabe genius fidgeting with scripts?
No need to remove the commands or to throttle them. Put a clear rule in the TOS, so the griefers go to the ban hell, and the creative people can continue to be creative.
Because there is NOTHING creative, in killing someone flying over your land.

Here's the quandry - if someone shoots you on land they own - it isn't PVP abuse.
If I were to script explosive mines and drones that targeted people all over my land and set it to damage, it isn't PVP abuse.

If I fly around ahern, or a non-combat sandbox, or your land doing that, then yes - it most certainly is!

And they have a right to stop you from entering - already established by the 'ban' feature , as well as the the function that does the exact same thing on island sims.

At what point do you get to dictate what someone else can build on thier land (again provided it doesn't violate any rules) - and at what point does that end?

As for the freedom to fly over someones plot -- what about the freedom of someone that wants to check out a house that someone has put the ban feature over? Its the same thing - for some reason they don't want visitors. It's their land - and although we don't particularly like what they've done, it is still thier right to deny visitors.

Denying access from land they own does not necessarily make them a griefer.

They may choose to do so in a way that we don't particularly like - but they are still within their rights to do it... just as it is within your rights to neg rate them if you feel it's innapropriate.

Siggy.

I agree it is a sad thing - but there will be people who will play by the letter of the law. There are people who will do things simply because 'they can'. There are people who don't think about anything other than themselves.

It's a sad fact - but the rules that bind ALL of us effect not only them - but us as well - and if changes need to be made then folks will have to look ouside their own desires and to the 'big picture'.. How they effect everyone.

If given the choice between suffering a few idiots and having someone else dictate what I can do on property I own -- I'll deal with the idiots as best I can.

There are tools within the game to show your displeasure - I would heartily suggest using them.

I still don't see how someone excersising thier right to dissallow access as being a griefer (which implies malicious intent - something that hasn't been proven) - remember that script can only work to a maximum of 90 or so meters - so flying over is more than likely possible.

It isn't cool for someone to act like an ass - but if they're not breaking the rules they are welcome to play the game as they wish... Again it's the same freedom that allows you to play as YOU wish.

Siggy.

I could argue it's just like someone trespassing on my land - RL analogies don't really work - the example I made earlier of using the RL situation of shooting someone that tresspassed on my RL land was an example of that.

Another difference - in SL it has been stated that I own not only the land, but the airspace above it, in RL this is not the case.

In SL my land is 'my country' - I am sovereign over it, free to make rules on it as I see fit (so long as it doesn't break the TOS) -- in RL this is not the case -- I may own my house, but I am still part of a country, and must abide by it's laws.

So your analogy doesn't work.

The thing here is that player A wishes player B to not build or use something they don't like.. which to be honest Anshe, is no different from someone not liking your for sales signs.

It's no different at its root.

You have the right to build what you like on your land, no matter what others may like or not - provided it doesn't break the rules.

I would say it is an inconvenience - but they are within their rights. You are allowed on their land by their wishes -- I beleive you yourself have excersised this right at times on your own land to ban various people.

There really isn't a difference.

They choose a method more inconveniencing, one I personally restrict to all but a handfull of disruptive people, but it is their choice to make..

I'm sure there are things that I do, and that you do, that some people SL really don't like - but if we're not breaking the rules, we are free to do them... and 'not liking something' (as you've had first hand experience of) isn't , and shouldn't be grounds for banning.

Siggy.

actually if you enter someones land where you might be shot you have time to notice that the land is not set to safe and to go out, if you stay, you do it at your own risk.
The setting of the land as unsafe is by itself a warning and iuts clearly displayed on your screen.
If you enter a land protected by a security script that kills you, you wont have the time to notice because you get hit as soon as you enter and you are sent home. This is killing without warning, making the one that set up the script a griefer, no more no less.
If one likes far west he can go to Jessie, but this place is not supposed to be a far west were griefers rule, owning a land doesnt by ANY means give you the right to shot anyone that passes by without any warning.
If you dont believe this try sitting on the roof of your house and shoot everyone that passes by with a push gun or with a cager (that doesnt give any warning), i would be curious to see for how much time you get banned.

A number of times people have flown into land and been ejected from their vehicles -- please cite when the landowners have been chastised or when they have been banned.

You're citing a precidence? Please state the case then.

Personally I've been on peoples land where they have pushgunned, and caged, ejected, frozen, orbited folks.. and they have never been banned.

I personally have orbited/pushgunned/dragged/caged/frozen/ejected many people on my own land - and yet I've never been banned.
At any and all that made themselves unwanted at my property - a good many folks - too many to keep count - in fact it's the reason I wrote MY script to begin with!

Never so much as a warning to them, and never so much as a warning email to me.

The only time you see your warning is when they have decided that that land is set to damage - there is no pricedent or place within the rules saying that I can only use certain scripts on the proviso that damage is set - if there is - again show me the precident.

We have already covered the killing argument - and there still is no sufficient argument to say that teleporting you home is 'killing'. If there is no damage enabled - there is no 'death'.

I would say that owning the land gives me every right to do with it as I please - even if that includes doing something you don't particularly like -- so long as it it within the boundries of my land, and doesn't violate the TOS.

And thus far - I am still unconvinced that you entering someone elses property, and having you ejected from that property (for whatever reason they may have) is violating it... It may be inconsiderate - but you still haven't shown where it's a violation.

When you're on someone elses property - you are a visitor there. They get to say what is acceptable, not you.

Siggy.

Siggy... please go f*ck yourself. If that's too difficult, I know a nice rehabiltated man (nickname Skull) that could help out.



LONG LIVE FLW BUILDS!!!!!!!! muahahahha