Bann Christmas at Schools in the United States? What's next?
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Corwin Weber
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12-08-2004 21:01
From: someone Unitarianism is still a Christ-worshipping religion. Uh, no it isn't. Unitarianism rejects the divinity of Jesus. One God.... not Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Unitarians (frequently) RESPECT Jesus as a spiritual teacher..... they do not, however, worship him. From: someone Deism is monotheism Only technically. Deism is about as close to atheism as you can get without ACTUALLY being an atheist. The god of Deism is either unaware or uncaring regarding human existance. It doesn't answer prayers, it doesn't require worship. It's a far cry from the personal godhead figure of Christianity. From: someone Publicly, all American Presidents have claimed to be Christian. There is debate whether some deliberately misled, and if others are just plain heretics. Washington made no secret of leaving religious services early... he didn't try to convince anyone that he was going for anything other than social reasons. Likewise Jefferson was open in his contempt for Christianity. From: someone *coughsbushistheantichristcoughs* No, he just sucks. The antichrist has been dead for about 1800 years. From: someone No, actually, this would include kids having parties in schools without school support, arguably not even in private rooms. This would be denying children the right to use public land to express religious beliefs. Actually no, it wouldn't. Religious groups are allowed to use public property (such as schools) during off time, just as any other groups are. Could you provide evidence otherwise? |
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Malachi Petunia
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12-08-2004 21:41
From: Blake Rockwell One can always put things in an Extreme Perspective. Spoken like a true master of the art. I think Blake's school should have spent far more time on civics and far less on xmas and how to be provincincial and opprobriously dogmatic. But that's just me. |
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Hiro Pendragon
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12-08-2004 22:04
From: someone Actually no, it wouldn't. Religious groups are allowed to use public property (such as schools) during off time, just as any other groups are. Could you provide evidence otherwise? I live in Jersey, where one of the more publicized cases takes place. From what I've heard on our talk news radio, this includes out-of-class time parties. Another school has banned not only all religious music from the Holiday music performance of the brass band, but all Winter seasonal music. (No "Winter Wonderland", et al, even though it has no reference to Christianity) Further we have another town in Jersey that had the brilliant idea to ban a Christmas caroller float from a private-business paid-for "multicultural" parade. Apparently every culture BUT Christianity. To myself, a moderate, I see these as more examples of the brutal partisanship that has taken hold of America. =(
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Aaron Levy
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12-08-2004 22:17
America... land where everything but the beliefs the country was founded on are tolerated.
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Corwin Weber
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12-08-2004 23:04
From: Hiro Pendragon I live in Jersey, where one of the more publicized cases takes place. From what I've heard on our talk news radio, this includes out-of-class time parties.
Another school has banned not only all religious music from the Holiday music performance of the brass band, but all Winter seasonal music. (No "Winter Wonderland", et al, even though it has no reference to Christianity)
Further we have another town in Jersey that had the brilliant idea to ban a Christmas caroller float from a private-business paid-for "multicultural" parade. Apparently every culture BUT Christianity.
To myself, a moderate, I see these as more examples of the brutal partisanship that has taken hold of America. =( Yeah.... because talk radio is SO well known for their fact checking. The parade in question has been in the news. If you'd look at the press releases from the people running the parade, you'd see that it is NOT a 'christmas parade.' (Aside from this.... private industry isn't subject to constitutional provisions anyway.... so it's what we call a moot point.) Where you see partisanship, I see people actually paying attention to constitutional principles for once. As someone who wasn't around for the pre-1950's era.... it's a refreshing change. From: Aaron Levy America... land where everything but the beliefs the country was founded on are tolerated. Which beliefs are you referring to exactly? |
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Hiro Pendragon
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12-09-2004 00:20
From: Corwin Weber Yeah.... because talk radio is SO well known for their fact checking. Wah! From: someone
The parade in question has been in the news. If you'd look at the press releases from the people running the parade, you'd see that it is NOT a 'christmas parade.' (Aside from this.... private industry isn't subject to constitutional provisions anyway.... so it's what we call a moot point.)
Oh, it certainly is not a Christmas parade ANYMORE. It was, until all this ridiculous Political Correctness pressure bullshit forced them to change the name. And you completely ignore the main point - that a "multicultural" parade singles out one culture in particular. (And it's not a moot point - the private businesses in a highly-Christian area felt pressured to omit the Christian group even though they were in no way obligated to be religiously equal.) From: someone
Where you see partisanship, I see people actually paying attention to constitutional principles for once. As someone who wasn't around for the pre-1950's era.... it's a refreshing change.
Wah! You left and right wingers are basically the same - neither side really gives a s*** about my rights, just YOUR rights. I want the right not to have religion shoved down my throat AND I want the right to be able to practice my religion. Right-wingers are impeding on the prior, left-wingers are impeding on the latter. My point about partisanship is that these two polar attitudes seem to be driving this country, and it's wrong. A two-party system is not meant to be a clash of opposite ideals, but a healthy discussion based on different interpretations of the same ideals that all Americans hold true.
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Icon Serpentine
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12-09-2004 00:46
I say ban christmas from any public place or institution if you truly are a multi-cultural nation. Religions divide people. So celebrate away on your own and stop shoving it around so much. I think this is great idea and is about due time.
Universities should be the first to secularize.
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Catherine Cotton
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12-09-2004 00:49
From: Blake Rockwell Because of this seperation of Church and State..now these ACLU people or whomever is trying to have the Holiday Celebration of Christmas banned from Schools. Next they will be saying because we pay Real Estate Personal Property Tax to the Government we can't Celebrate Christmas at home..THIS IS F*CKING RIDICULAS!! agreed; personaly I feel there is realy no choice anymore either pay to put your kid in a private christian school or put up with this kind of crap. its a sad sad world we live in. For those of you against religion in schools I would like you to pay for my kids private school. Sure he wont learn ebonics and he will graduate with better than an 8th grade education. But at least he can openly pray. I find this all very ironic realy, my child is now forsed not to practice religion, if he wishes to mom and dad get a big old bill $$. So who's paying for his freedoms you or me? Merry Christmas  Cat |
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Hiro Pendragon
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12-09-2004 01:03
From: Icon Serpentine I say ban christmas from any public place That's precisely why the Pilgrims left England in the first place.
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Kris Ritter
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12-09-2004 01:34
From: Catherine Cotton For those of you against religion in schools I would like you to pay for my kids private school.
Cat That makes sense, Cat... so once again, it's ok for the Christians to force feed us their beliefs, but if we don't want it we should compensate you all for your inconvenience. Thats why I don't study religion. They seem to be full of illogical self serving hypocrites. |
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Willow Zander
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12-09-2004 01:43
*spreads the christmas love*
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Blake Rockwell
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12-09-2004 06:18
From: Kris Ritter Ok. Remind me... how does this relate to the indignant thread title " Bann(sic) Christmas at Schools in the United States? What's next?"
Oh. Btw, for those that didn't notice, Blake said..."If you don't like the words "In God We Trust" why are you in the United States? lol.
Ok..the morale of the story is..This Nation is becomming more and more divided based on The founding fathers beliefs and principles and those that do not believe in it..belief meaning "God" with a corelation of the current Holidays we Celebrate and those that wish not to believe in these original principles and how "Freedom" is interpretated as a Contridiction to this Principle thereby creating a division in this Nation as one and both sides being offended by perceiving it as Opression, and both sides not seeing the goodness of the Celebration itself..based on the eyes of a child seeing it simply as a time of giving and sharing.
In the end these Extremisms may change what America was founded on as Freedom, in reality esculating into possible Civil War thereby forcing the Government to step in and take these freedoms away. The question is.."What is the Price of Freedom" in the end? How will it effect us and this Nation. Will we truely be Free or will Extremism take over and cause Freedom to become Opression.
This Thread is not mean't to offend anyone..only to debate so that we may analyse what is truely happening and where it will take us. If we as a Nation become so divided..we may soon fall. |
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Rose Karuna
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12-09-2004 07:18
From: Catherine Cotton agreed; personaly I feel there is realy no choice anymore either pay to put your kid in a private christian school or put up with this kind of crap. its a sad sad world we live in. For those of you against religion in schools I would like you to pay for my kids private school. Sure he wont learn ebonics and he will graduate with better than an 8th grade education. But at least he can openly pray. I find this all very ironic realy, my child is now forsed not to practice religion, if he wishes to mom and dad get a big old bill $$. So who's paying for his freedoms you or me? Merry Christmas Cat Catherine - I already AM paying for your kids private school if you happen to live in the state of Florida. You get a voucher here and can use that voucher toward any school you wish to put your kid into. I have no school age children, but I am happy to pay taxes that go toward education of all children. I'm just curious, why is it that your child needs to pray 24 hours a day? What is stopping your child from praying at home and praying at church? Really what is stopping your child from taking 5 minutes on the playground and saying a silent prayer? Why does your religion have to be public? Could it be that you wish your religion to be public because you wish to sermonize to the rest of us about the "one true faith"? Why do Christians have to make public something so private as their conversations with God? Really just curious, no sarcasm intended.
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Chip Midnight
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12-09-2004 08:27
From: Blake Rockwell Ok..the morale of the story is..This Nation is becomming more and more divided based on The founding fathers beliefs and principles and those that do not believe in it..belief meaning "God" Please stop spouting this revisionist history BS. MANY of the founding fathers were very hostile towards religion, and towrads Christianity in particular. This country was NOT founded on belief in god. It was founded on secularism!!! *bangs head on table* "the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11
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Pendari Lorentz
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12-09-2004 08:31
If one more person tries to say that the United States was founded on Christianity, I'm going to scream!! 
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Pendari Lorentz
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12-09-2004 08:32
*hugs Chip tight and doesn't let go* *tries to think of ways to explain this to hubby* 
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Chip Midnight
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12-09-2004 08:38
From: Rose Karuna Why do Christians have to make public something so private as their conversations with God? I'll take a stab at that one. I think part of it is the evangelical nature of Christianity, but I think it has more to do with a rigidly indoctrinated persecution complex. This is why you can't talk about keeping public schools secular (which most Christians mistakenly believe is tantamount to atheism) without Christians freaking out and claiming you're trying to outlaw god and religion. It's also why there's an indoctrinated cultural prohibition against any dissenting view of religion or religious belief. Any suggestion that religious displays be confined to home and church is met with overreaction bordering on hysterics. Christian clergy has been propogating the notion that all non-Christians are trying to wipe Christianity from the face of the earth for 200 years in this country. In most Chrstian's minds, secularism and persecution are thought of as the same thing. It's highly irrational... and annoying as hell.
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Chip Midnight
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12-09-2004 08:40
Yay! Hugs from Pen! I'm sure hubby won't mind tooooo much
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Blake Rockwell
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12-09-2004 08:48
From: Chip Midnight Please stop spouting this revisionist history BS. MANY of the founding fathers were very hostile towards religion, and towrads Christianity in particular. This country was NOT founded on belief in god. It was founded on secularism!!! *bangs head on table*
"the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 I am only stating reasons for why these debates exist..I did not label anyone one particular founding father..only what the perception is on behalf of some parties. |
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Kris Ritter
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12-09-2004 08:50
From: Blake Rockwell I am only stating reasons for why these debates exist..I did not label anyone one particular founding father..only what the perception is on behalf of some parties. This is such a solid argument after the fact for pretty much anything. In fact I'm going to adopt it as my own: 'Hey, I'm just saying there are people out there with that opinion.. I didnt say it was mine' |
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Marcos Fonzarelli
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12-09-2004 10:07
From: pandastrong Fairplay FUNNIEST POST EVER
I am soooooooo converting from Judaism over to Chinesity. I'm converting just for the BBQ Pork. |
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Corwin Weber
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12-09-2004 10:11
I'm still waiting to hear how christianity is being 'persecuted' by any of this.
How is your religion being persecuted? How is it being banned? How is your child not being indoctrinated into religious belief in public shools IN ANY WAY restricting your freedom of religion?
This is a secular nation. Always has been. If you want a theocracy, move to Iran.
If your response to the previous statement is 'But they don't LIKE us there....' then you're beginning to see the entire frellin point.
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Blake Rockwell
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12-09-2004 10:24
Originally Posted by Blake Rockwell hmm..Ironic..IF you disagree with "In God We Trust" then why the hell are you in the United States? lol. I didn't realize Jesus was the only god. Color me surprised. If you don't believe in seperation of church and state -- --then why the hell are YOU in the United States? rotflmao From: Kendra Bancroft I didn't realize Jesus was the only god. Color me surprised.
If you don't believe in seperation of church and state --
--then why the hell are YOU in the United States? rotflmao I don't agree or disagree with either one..it's just that it doesn't really bother me. My point to this Lecktor is..if it bothers someone to that extreme because some people believe or do not believe in a God..I think it's ridiculous. No I don't believe Religion should be shoved down anyones throat..and I don't believe that most schools are doing this..only the swapping of Presents and Christmas decorations. I just don't see where that is offensive. I do see that it is offensive if the religious aspect is shoved down someones throat. And you should know I am not a devout Christian me going around stripping at parties LOL. |
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Lecktor Hannibal
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12-09-2004 10:31
From: Blake Rockwell Originally Posted by Blake Rockwell
hmm..Ironic..IF you disagree with "In God We Trust" then why the hell are you in the United States? lol.
I didn't realize Jesus was the only god. Color me surprised.
If you don't believe in seperation of church and state --
--then why the hell are YOU in the United States? rotflmao
I don't agree or disagree with either one..it's just that it doesn't really bother me. My point to this Lecktor is..if it bothers someone to that extreme because some people believe or do not believe in a God..I think it's Ridiculas.
No I don't believe Religion should be shoved down anyones throat..and I don't believe that most schools are doing this..only the swapping of Presents and Christmas decorations.
I just don't see where that is offensive. I do see that it is offensive if the religious aspect is shoved down someones throat. WTF???? Just leave me out of it ok ? I said my piece to you yesterday. I think you are ridiculous <---correct spelling.
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Artillo Fredericks
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12-09-2004 10:42
For a real belly laugh, hours of fun and entertainment, go check this out! http://www.landoverbaptist.org/and especially their store, and even more especially, these items!: http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist/33515Peace and happy building! Arti
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