Do you believe in God?

Al Pacino

The Devil's Advocate


Well he may not have written the line, but he says it in the movie.

Answer to the topic "yes"

Long dead actually. Bush is just a twit. The antichrist referred to in Revelation has been dead for over 1800 years.

The mark of the beast isn't a prophecy about the future. It's a political commentary about the present. It's a reference to Nero.

Yep, The antichrist was Rome.

After the many years that the human race has existed, were still here arent we? There are so many variables that make life, in general, possible, that practicly everybody takes for granted every single day of their lives.

And if those variables hadn't gone in some way we could take advantage of.... we wouldn't be here to be having the discussion.

Again, your point?

Just as there are so many variables that make life impossible to many...

I don't take for granted what I have, that is why I am such as pessimist.

I consider myself among the 1% luckiest people in the planet. I have my health, enough money and my freedom.

But yet having lived outside the USA and through travels, I have seen what a miserable existence so many people have. We don't even have to go outside of the USA. Visit children's hospitals, nursing homes, VA hospitals, prisons, the inner cities, some of our rural towns..

It is disheartening and at the same time infuriating for me to see the suffering in this world. So to me, it is pretty illogical to talk of the love of God.

- T -

Yes is the correct answer to your question!

There is no 'correct' answer. It's all relative. It is what you believe. So for you, Billy, a 'yes' answer might be right, for others it is wrong.

Not since I was a small child.

Oh, and:

Weak anthropic principle.

God is dead.

~Ulrika~

Everyone should beleive in something.

I beleive I'll go for a smoke.

Siggy.

P.S. King Kong died for your sins you ungrateful bastards.

Coming to a very small screen near your : "THE PASSION OF THE KONG".

Oh, yeah - amazing, freaky flick. This movie disturbs me like few others.

My question to our resident atheists and agnostics: How do you justify making unequivocal statements about God's purported non-existence while simultaneously faulting Christians for making similar statements to the positive? Is there any chance that you have cornered yourselves with a circular syllogism?

What few unequivocal statements we make, we back up with evidence. In the atheist/agnostic community you'll find that unequivocal statements are not the norm.

None of my beliefs are unequivocal. New information can and does change my beliefs over time. I think that's one of the fundamental differences between truly religious people and atheists/agnostics. I can't just decide to believe something. My default position for everything is disbelief. There has to be enough evidence to tip the scales. If you're a true literalist then you'd never be able to claim belief or disbief in anything. I don't actually know first hand that large bodies of mass produce gravity. Perhaps there are actually tiny invisible suction cups on my feet that keep me from floating off the earth. I can't disprove it, but there's no reason for me to believe it's true. I simply apply the same filter to god as I do to anything else. If people applied the same suspension of disbelief that's required to believe in god to everything else, then they'd have to believe in any idea about anything if it met the same burden of proof (which is none). It doesn't matter if I'd like to believe or not. It doesn't matter if I'd win a prize for believing if it turned out to be true. Barring any real evidence, all we can do is speculate. That's not enough to tip the scale off disbelief.

Chip and Corwin, thanks for the thoughtful replies. I guess it was the Nietzsche (sp?) quote that got me. I very much agree with Chip's notion that belief evolves over time. On the other hand, as I learn more about topics such as string theory, I begin to comprehend just how much we don't know about our universe. When there is a possibility of eleven dimensions of reality, and we only have an awareness of four, I wonder just how reliable our evidence is.

What I find curious is that both religionists and atheists put a stake in the ground. The way I see it, it is a leap of faith on either end of that spectrum.

Well Nietze was not atheist or agnostic. He was a nihilist. He mentioned a couple of times that the gods created in the mind of man were dead (hence the famous god is dead quote). My translation upon reading some of his works, Will to Power for example, is that he believed that if any gods existed they would be inconceivable to man because man cannot conceive anything greater than his own existence. Pretty much if there is a god he is far too amazing for us to understand in such we should just go about our daily lives and do the best we can ethically. I find it very presumptuous that so many religions can think they control god's will (if there is a god to begin with) seeing as how most religions believe their god has dominion over man and they are men. I would think that they should take into account that their god would change his "mind" on occasion or alter course. Though most religious folk would not suffer such a suggestion.

"The overthrow of beliefs is not immediately followed by
the overthrow of institutions (or behaviours!); rather, the new beliefs
live for a long time in the now desolate and eerie house of their
predecessors, which they themselves preserve, because of the housing
shortage." Nietze Will to Power.

Ohh and in my opinion there are as many dimensions of reality as there are beings...We created the number 11 without human thought it doesn't exist.

It's not a leap of faith to go from a complete lack of evidence to disbelief. It's a huge leap of faith to go from a complete lack of evidence to blind faith. They're not equivelant

Corwin, I've always been facinated by the book of Revelations in the Bible. I've read the entire bible almost 3 times now, but Revelations I've read about 20. hehe. I swear I have not heard your argument before and would really love some links or book recommendations on this thought! It sounds very interesting to me! So thank you in advance!

As for the topic at hand. Do I believe in god? Yes. But I've never been able to put my beliefs into words that anyone seems to understand. lol Some of my beliefs match those of religions in existance, some match religions that were long ago and evolved to something different, and some I'm not sure exactly what religion they would belong to if any. I have always believed in god though, thus far nothing has made me change my mind. If anything, my beliefs just evolve.

http://www.religion.ucsb.edu/faculty/thomas/classes/rgst80a/lectures/lec22.html

That link doesn't cover the whole topic very well, but has some of the basic reasoning. If you do a bit of googling you should be able to find something a bit more meaty.

Very interesting link! Thank you Chip.

Chip's link is a good one. Basically the thing is that the early christians were (natrually) jews, and judaism (at least at the time) was extremely mystical.... heavily into numerology. If one works out the mark of the beast along those formulae, it spells out the greek words for 'Nero Caesar.'

Nero was pretty unpopular even in Rome itself... (hell he was only emperor for about three years before the romans had had enough and assassinated his psychotic ass) and with his persecution of the early christians... along with his own charming personality quirks.... it's not terribly surprising that the early christians didn't like him much.

Yes, I've heard that argument before, but for whatever reason, it does not resonate. Let me ruminate on it before responding further.

Isis, thank you for the Nietze info. I should point out that, although I consider myself to be a Christian, I have come to the conclusion that most religious institutions/doctrines/dogmas are corrupt and self-serving. Also, it is interesting that you point out that men and religion somehow to attempt to dictate the will of God. That reminds me of the ancient practice of "house gods." For whatever reason, humans want to tame that which is inextricably wild (read:God). CS Lewis illustrates that concept well in the Narnia series with regard to Aslan, a type of Christ. "But is he quite safe," asked Lucy. "No, he is not safe...but, he is good." (Rushed paraphrase there...I can look up a direct quote later, if necessary.)

Very interesting! Thank you Chip and Corwin!