What does the Christian God want from us?

In any case, it's silly to try to debate the issue of gods or goddesses in the judeo-christian (and by extension islamic) tradition, because you're trying to prove or disprove the existance of a being (or beings) that we, by definition have no ability to detect.

That said. The holy books of all these religions can be whittled down to basically one key thing. Try to be nice to each other for a change. Yes, there are wars, and in war time a lot of the rules are suspended... but if people at least tried to be friendly and tolerant, there'd be less war.

So, what does God want? Maybe just that we be nice. Or maybe... to bring this into a more SL related tone... maybe he/she/it/they want(s) us to be able to progress far enough along the evolutionary path without blowing ourselves up, that we can make him/her/it/them a really, really nice pie when we reach the same stage of development at point x in the past/present/future.

So there ya go...

What does god want? Pie!

Actually, I was just trying to show Kevn an alternative way of living a moral life without invoking the Christian, Islamic, or any other god. A little bit of Stoicism, a dash of the Analects, something from Kierkegaard, of all people.... Apply heat from these forums to cook it up, and - Voila!

Seth, Your point that people can be good, honest, and caring for others, even if they reject the notion of a creator isn't lost on me. I understand your point and agree.

In fact, I don't assume everyone who believes in God does only good.

My point is this.... I don't think many young people are going to seek a life of selflessness with the belief life is meaningless. If we teach kids in school life is an accident, and they will die, and the human race will soon be extinct as the Sun burns the Earth, they will come to believe this is truly a "rat race". They will seek the quickest way to wealth regardless of the cost to humanity.

By looking at the situation we find ourselves in today, I would say we are seeing the fruits of this kind of "education". Young people are killing one another more than ever, because they see no value to the life they destroy. They deal in drugs they know will harm others. They are killing their classmates, teachers, parents, siblings at an amazing rate.

This is just my observation. It may not be scientific evidence, but it's clearly happening.

Thanks for the discussion on such an interesting topic.

Or even true...

LINK

Might want to educate them on the hazards of ordering two Whoppers, a king-size fries and a 48-oz diet coke for lunch though.


-Ghoti

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/09/07/national/main231455.shtml


This CBS article says it all, it's amazing how grusome these attacks have become.


"A rise in the crime doesn't explain the violence either. Juvenile homicide, like crime overall, has been dropping dramatically since the all-time highs of the early 1990s. However, the youth homicide rate remains nearly double what it was in 1980, and five times the rate of the early 1960s."

Read this article. Remember, when comparing the history of teen violence in this discussion, one should compare to the time when creation and God ws allowed to be taught. That way we are actually comparing the difference between children who are instilled with a faith in God and a creator, to children who might get the notion of God from home.

To say things haven't changed for the worse is to deny reality. imho

Edit: Youths who have faith in God are better off. This is evidenced from a study...

"Teens who view religion as important are more likely to:

· Do better in school.

· Feel better about themselves.

· Shun alcohol, drugs and sex.

· Care about the poor.

· Make moral choices based on what is right rather than what would make them happy."

It would appear faith in God is a good thing for young people based on these findings.

http://ydr.com/story/teen/84133/

I don't know that you need to get into a question of whether or not there is a Supreme Being or beings to acknowledge the degradation inherent in a wholly materialistic culture.

Teenagers routinely get the message that they themselves don't really exist as beings or have value. All value is assigned to possessions. They are denied opportunities to contribute positively to the world early on, they are treated as irresponsible and even criminal before they've done a thing. Then people are surprised to find them embittered and lacking in self-respect?

Belief in God is not necessary for the world to have meaning. Belief in each other is.

I don't presume meaning must be imposed from without at all, in fact, I believe meaning comes from within the God created spirit we call conscience. Nor did I suggest people can't find some meaning without God, even though any meaning they find is because of God imho.

Seth had said life is meaningless, and that we should seek dignity. My question was what point is dignity if life is meaningless. Seth has since clearified his thought, stating life isn't meaningless if we add meaning. If fishing adds meaning to one's life, then life isn't meaningless after all. Although, seeking to make the World better place isn't accomplished by fishing, unless one keeps the fish and feeds the hungry. We can all fish, but how does that create dignity for us and others? I don't think it can on it's own.

Just the opinion of a simple, 3-d being, with limited senses, who is stuck in time.

My daughter, a teen, has faith only in the Flying Spaghetti Monster or --- if she's not being ironic, which is rare --- something nebulous and not at all associated with the God referenced above. And my daughter is not MORE LIKELY to do those things listed above: her actions are EXEMPLARY of those things* ... No religion required, tyvm.

Although I DO see your point. Most teens --- being the less intrepid, more unquestioning, easily led, hormonally confused people they (and people of all ages, generally) are --- will do better when led by the snout via some highly codified set of societal guidlines predicated on the fear of retribution from some invisible superhero in the sky.

Of COURSE shepherds are necessary --- when one is dealing with SHEEP.

Memory Harker <--- not a sheep.

Memory Harker's daughter <--- not a sheep.


Your mileage may vary.





* Well, except for the sex part. I mean, yes, at 14 she's still a virgin. But it's not for lack of desire --- she claims she must be The World's Horniest Teenager --- and I'm like, "Honey, pfft, ALL teenagers are The World's Horniest Teenager" --- but, rather, lack of opportunity. (It's sad to me that such a study, as referenced above, would lump sex in with drugs and alcohol, anyway; but that's just more evidence as to how such studies are, themselves, pathetic.)

Hmmm. Well, it aught to noted that the article I linked to is from 2004. Kevn's article is from 2000. You be the judge if these trends could have changed in 4 years time.

Also, I believe what the National Institues of Health tells us is more accurate data than one would get from any media outlet where they thrive on sensationalism.

BTW,

A Canadian article, but it mentions a similar study in the USA: LINK



Supporting 2004 Canadian data

-Ghoti

Ghoti, regardless of the dates of the information, if one doesn't compare recent(when schools are prohibited to teach creation/God) history to the 1950s and early 1960s(a time when creation and God was taught in schools), one isn't really making the point.

BTW, your information was from 2002, not 2004 when it was written. So it's only 2 years difference.

I agree Kevn, and actually, this goes with the whole, "believe, but why make us intelligent then?" There are oodles and oodles of other materials written out there to study and examine, either about or of Christianity (Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis, Spong etc etc) or about or of other religions (their core texts as well as texts supporting or explaining the cores closer). I think God/Christ wants us to explore, to examine, to read other materials. I think that's all tied into free will.

Free will/absence of sin: I think that just because we can't sin doesn't mean we have given up free will. Here's the deal. If Satan is vanquished, destroyed, whatever, then sin would no longer exist. So we can still choose what paths we want to take, and actions we want to do, however, without some choices there, we would be unable to choose them. If that made any sense.

But ... if El Borbah defeats The Masked Hooligan in best two out of three falls, WITHOUT using the Atomic Knee Drop or the Ape Sex Suplex AND eschewing his usual inglorious gambits with a Foreign Object or a Folding Chair, then the sky will rain Stewart's Ginger Beer, dodos will frolic in the parks, and teams of happy little Smurfs will rub extra-refined jojoba oil into everyone's stretch marks on an hourly basis. And, lo, there will be pie!

Okay, two years then, but clearly it is saying the opposite from what the link you provided is saying. The article you posted is says youth crime is at an all-time high, when the actual data shows this to simply not be true.

Insisting that we equate levels today with levels from the 1960s is like comparing applesand oranges. A whole lot more has changed between 1960 and now, not the least of which is that the population of the US went from (1960 census) 179,980,000 to (2000 census) 281,421,906. More population equals more youth = more youth crime.

All kinds of things can be 'proven' by cherry-picking our numbers and corrolations where we want to see them:

For example, the lack of pirates in today's world is a direct cause of global warming:

From here:




-Ghoti

Heh. You forgot that all the heels will turn babyface.

The statistics are based on "per 1000 people" to avoid the issue of increasing statistics based on population growth.

Such fierce use of science to support all this religion!

The Old Lab-Coated Ones are honored, I'm sure.

Per 1000 people? Where does this appear in the CBS article you posted? Or are you referencing something else here?

Besides, if you put 179,980 thousand people into a given space (the USA) you get one dynamic. You put 281,421 thousand people into that SAMEspace, the dynamic will change.

Apples and oranges.

-Ghoti

I didn't mean to imply that only Ms. Jacobs would have access to said pie. And I can only imagine that, IF such were the case? She'd be generous enough to share it.

Okay, then.

Ghoti, what dynamics do you suppose changed to cause the dramatic increase in the teens who kill people, if not the fact schools changed their ability to teach about God and the ability to abort a child on demand without parental notification.

Seems to me life has lost the value it once had among young people. And I don't think overcrowding can be used as a reason.

Oooh. I know the answer to this one. As the number of teens killing people has increased, the number of pirates worldwide have decreased. Clearly we need more pirates to keep those kids in check.

Statistics can be viewed multiple ways- If there are a greater number of kids killing people than in past years, do you think that's because the population is larger? Are there more kids but a lower percentage of them killing others? Is the percentage the same? Is the percentage larger, and, if so, is it statistically significant? And I don't think religion can be used as a reason.

I should also add that you're limiting your sphere of causality to a very narrow scope from the get-go. There are many more factors that cause social deviance than lack of religion. Is social deviance really on the rise in any significant way in the first place or is it really that the number of conservative-minded people are having more babies than everyone else? There are all kinds of factors to consider besides just whether or not kids are getting the proper religious instruction. That's just silly.

You said a mouthful!

Forumful.

Whatever: WTG!

Lots of interesting numbers

-Ghoti

Exactly my point.

-Ghoti

Yah, Seth, do you accept _payment_ then? Is different than donations ya know. lol