What does the Christian God want from us?

Not true. I 'lump' MY belief in the Bible and MY relationship with God. I make no pretense as to what other humans will do with it.
Again, the 'moral high ground' that you speak of is not the one I speak of as I pointed out in a previous post. The only distinctions Christians are to have that non-Christians do not is to be obedient with the dictates of the Bible and to have a relationship with their Lord.

Christians are to be in this world, but not of this world. It is a fairly complicated discussion to say the least, but it is one that Christians are to try to attain. I hope that I have not elevated Christians to something they are not in your eyes.

There are many that claim to be Christian that are nothing of the sort. I am not making an individual judgement on any person. There are many Christians that have never opened up the Bible that they claim to be subject to. Jesus himself said there will be those who come to Him saying they are followers of Him that never were.

Further, there are many (as Susie points out) that are bent on changing the meaning of the Bible to meet ther own standards. Anyone who claims that the Jewish people (or any poeple) are not worthy are wrong thinking. As I understand it, the KKK believe that the Arian race is above every other race. Even if that were the case, they belie their belief in Jesus by elevating themselves above others.

Philippians 2:3-5 (AMP)
3 Do nothing from factional motives [through contentiousness, strife, selfishness, or for unworthy ends] or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself [thinking more highly of one another than you do of yourselves].
4 Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others.
5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

Seth,
Please repost that so I can respond to what it is you think I said. TY

This is well stated, so well stated that it illustrates the issue.

Consider the view from outside of Christianity. Obedience to your book comes first before law, before common cultural values, before anything else.

Is that not the *very definition* of moral high ground, higher than any other?


If that is not enough to convince, consider the inverse. Would you cede the moral high ground to me? For that matter, who would *you* damn to eternal hellfire, if you had omnipotent power?


It is clear, there is a surety - a surety of holding the absolute truth, the absolute moral rectitude and the surety that others do not.

"Moral high ground" is a gentleman's term for what such surety represents. Even if yours *is* the absolute truth.

- Desmond Shang

I would not presume to know what your moral high ground is. My moral high ground is not something that I condemn others for, nor is it something that I would deride someone else for. It is something that I hold myself to. Refer to my island reference earlier in the thread. That certainly does not mean that I would not let others know what my moral high ground is on a subject if asked.I really don't know. I could tell you how I would fix a program, but I could not tell you how I would fix a bad perm as my wife could. I program for a living, my wife is a hairdresser. Until I am in His position with His knowledge of humans and their hearts, I can not tell you how I would condemn anyone. I am told by the Bible that I am not to condemn any other human, period.The absolute truth (surety) to me may not be perceived by others. I can not help what they see, but I can listen to what they say and judge current views of myself and my conclusions with them based on my own belief system.I am not part of a Christian system that tells me how to live. The Bible and my relationship with God are the guiding factors, not the church I attend, not the pastor, not the doctrines that support that church. As a matter of fact, the church I go to encourages reading the Bible as well as outside sources. It encourages us to search for the 'truth' of things, both secularly and Biblically. That is the reason I do search out other's opinions on things.

I am guessing that what you and others are referring to is a man made caste system of religion that all must follow or be excommunicated. That simply is not the church that I believe Jesus spoke of.

-------
I thought I would provide an example. I do not agree with abortion. I believe that life begins at conception.

I am also pro-choice. How can that be?

Because I think it is wrong to force my beliefs on others. I think if a woman deems it necessary to have an abortion, that is her choice. That is something that she will have to deal with God and her conscience on, for the rest of her life.

If she chooses to turn her back on God and ignore the tugs at her heart, is it my job to try to guilt her into changing her mind or ask for repentance? Or even worse, condemn her for such? Absolutely not.

Is it my job to picket and harass individuals that have made that choice? Absolutely not.

Is it my job to kill doctors the perform such medical procedures? Absolutely not, and I would be think that Jesus might look at me even worse than the doctor since I was doing it 'in His name'.

Is it my job to show love to her at all times? Absolutely. (I wish myself and Christians as a whole could reach the ideal position on this one on all matters. But, we are fallible humans and fall very short very often).

Is it my job to get everyone on board with my conclusions? Absolutely not.

Is it my job if someone comes to me to ask me my thoughts on the subject to give them the reasons for my belief? Absolutely.

I do feel sorry for the unborn, but that is one last person that will have to deal with this world, and I believe that God will take care of His children.

So you're one of the kinder, gentler savages, eh? Tell me, where are all those 4 billion folks who haven't "accepted Christ as their personal savior" going after they die?

~Ulrika~

Wow, a question from the great and fearful Ulrika? I thought my posts were off-limits...

I would say that you need to read the Bible for that. Seeing as you will skip over my post if I include scriptural quotes, I will not put any in here. I will say that God is a fair and just God. He alone will decide the best place for all of us.

Let no human tell you where someone is going, because they don't know the heart of another, only God does. It is a humans heart (no not the physical one, so please don't go there) that decides their fate.

And I want your soul muhahahahahahaha!

It's really not all that great, actually. When you're in that position, your circulation is disrupted and it's really difficult to keep ample amounts of blood going to the right places. Plus, you know how much better it feels to have someone else rub your back than to rub it yourself? The same is true for sensitive areas.

And it really, really bites if you fall off the bed, not to mention that if you avoid serious back injury there is that annoying popping sound that only you can hear coming from your top-most cervical vertebrae when you walk.

"Please repost that"...? Well, OK... but I'm not sure why you'd want me to....

"You dodged the issue, Kevn. So did Kurgan. As you are both dodging the issue now.

Sorry - the moral measurement is a real problem for Christians, perhaps the worst - and one they have never been able to adequately deal with - witness yours and Kurgan's reactions."

hehe, very funny, repost what you say I posted that suggests I lumped any religions together.

I'm speaking of the tactics you've used in this debate. Including the one you used in the two sentences just cited. It's a dodge, Kurgan. Engage the question.



Then you need to carefully define what your idea - or the "Christian" idea - of a moral high ground is. Otherwise, your explanation devolves on semantics - which is very shakey ground for a cosmic truth.

The term "moral high ground" is one you chose, and your meaning was clear: Christians claim to have moral knowledge and moral belief that is unique to the human experience. Even were you to back down from this claim now, it wouldn't matter, because I and many others here have read enough of Christian philosophy, doctrine, and commentary to recognize that obvious characteristic of the Christian religion.

Whatever you choose to call it, or however you choose to present it, the idea implies a very heavy responsibility and a clear and applicable standard of measurement - as Christ, the apostles, and the various canon-writers pointed out many times - some of which I quoted earlier.



I'm greatly surprised by this statement. It strongly implies that there is no difference between a Christian and a non-Christian beyond belief. It certainly belies the ideas of the Christian God as discussed in Leviticus, and the perceptions of Christ as reported from the Sermon on the Mount and summarized by Paul in various letters to the early congregations.

Again, you seem to be claiming one thing when it is convenient to make your point - and another when it is convenient to defend that point. Christ was more direct and perhaps a bit more of a risk-taker. "Here is how to judge us," he told unbelievers. Several times.



Originally this familiar statement meant that Christians must be able to engage people in this world on their own, secular terms, in order to live among them and communicate with them sufficiently to save them and preserve the religion. And yet, Christians must remain apart from the secular world in order to meet Christ's moral standard for behavior. Originally, over 1500 years ago, the statement was a strategy of sacrifice and a code of behavior for the survival of the church.

Unfortunately - once the church was established - the phrase came to be used as a justification for personal and institutional Christian failings. Blame Augustine and Leo VI for this. Credit Martin Luther for pointing it out in the sixteenth century.



I'm afraid my statement was a little more radical than that. I am claiming that no person who claims to be a Christian can be. It is not possible - by the parameters of moral measurement that Christ himself set up, and by the behavioral standards that the subset of all Christians who are human must follow. It is precisely that paradox that Christians have never come to grips with - and it is a paradox that has been pointed out to them many times through their history.

Okay, as the official Messenger of God I am required to relay this message from God.

Please stop calling. Stop sending text messages. Stop praying at all hours of the night. While it is understandable that you love God and want to have a relationship with him, the simple truth is that he is just not that into you.

Please move on.

Matthew 19:23-26 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Run out of your own thoughts, Kevn? All things may be possible for God, but Christians believe in the concept of free will. I'm afraid that you are responsible for your own behavior - as well as for upholding the standards of your belief.

The quote was to show what scripture says. My opinion has no bearing on what is possible or impossible according to Christian teachings. The scripture is the authority concerning Christian faith. This is a quote directly from Christ.

I really thought I was. There was no dodge intended.

The Christian idea of a moral high ground has nothing to do with the secular world. It is intended as a 'law' for Christians to adhere to. It is also an unattainable goal that all Christians are to strive for; as in an unending race.

Not true. I used it because Chip did. I went with it though.

I made no such claim. I have a lot of friends that are not Christian but do adhere to the same standards that I do. Not because the Bible tells them to, but because the see it as ethical to do so.

I hope you were reading the Bible and not depending on another human to translate it to / for you. That is what happened in the dark ages you know... The masses were not to seek the truth for themselves, but it was related to them from their 'fathers'.

Absolutely.

Luke 12:48 (KJV)
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

How so? By holding to the dictates of the Bible, you would fulfill all the requirements. Jesus died on the cross so we would not be spend eternity in hell. There is nothing Christians can do for salvation in and of ourselves except accepting the free gift that Christ has given us. Once we accpet that gift, we are to do our best to live the life He prescribes. We all fall short, but we are to endure until the end in trying to live up to that standard. I guess I really don't understand where you are going here. Can you please expand on this?

I have stated nothing that would belie this. Again, not all who claim to be Christian will fall under this category. If you are following the dictates of the Bible, your fruits will be seen.

Matthew 7:20 (AMP)
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

It was meant the Christians should live in the world, but not hold to the world's teachings. In the day that this was written, it was not uncommon for temples to have prostitutes. It was against Christian doctrine to employ them. It is equally wrong for a Christian to look at a pornography site today. That does not mean that Christians are not to use the internet. There are some things that Christians should keep themselves from, and some things that Christians should do, a lot of which the world is in opposition to.

It was to set an example to the world around believers. It was to show non-believers the joy in Jesus that believers had. It was to give hope to those who had no hope, that the worldly way of doing things was not the proper way, and that by living in Jesus, they could have joy in a world that has little.

I would agree with you here. I make no attempt to gloss over the errs of the past. Nor do I try to justify the things that the religious movement today is doing. I can only say, read the Bible.

Luther is an excellent movie BTW.

As Kevn's post states, all things are possible through Jesus. This may not mean anything to non-believers, but that makes no difference to believers. Paul tells us that we are to continue the race though we may stumble and fall. We are to get back up and complete the race, for Jesus will complete the work He started in us.

I am not sure where you get that the New Testament says anywhere that Christians are to be perfect in all things all the time when it clearly teaches we can not. We are to strive to attain such perfection always. When we fail, we are to repent and make things right, then continue the race.

Lordy, page 23, folks? I so do not regret bailing out of this topic at about page 5.

Based on your premises, I can see how your examples make sense. Clearly there is a rationality to it. You seem fairly reasonable, and not one to impose your beliefs on others. This is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Yet from current events alone, you might appreciate why people with such absolute, internal surety are a concern for many.


I wonder what you think, honestly, deep down - when you meet someone with the same surety as your own, but Hindu. Or atheist. Or a student of Islam. You may not judge them - but do you suspect they are going straight to hell? Or are utterly foolish?

I'll make the first move and I'll tell you what I think, with unabashed honesty (this is a compliment to you by the way, I would not say it unless I thought we could maintain civil discourse).


- I find surety dangerous, and illusory, and often foolish - I wonder how this person, of all people, *knows* that they are the informed one.
- I am envious of the clear, simple moral direction.
- I wonder what the 'sure' person I've just met would do, if in control of my life or society.
- Sometimes, especially with religions I am not culturally used to... I find certain ritualistic elements to be embarrassingly, unstiflingly funny, and I struggle to control myself.

So many people can be sure of themselves in obviously conflicting ways - that says something about human nature. Are any of us capable of learning from this?

True enough. I'm the one who brought that idea into the thread and it keeps getting thrown back at Kurgan as if he asserted it himself without provocation. In the interest of fairness he ran with it only because I lobbed it at him (and when I'm sober again I'll catch up with this thread and throw a few more cents in).

1) for us to recognize and submit to the fact that God is God, we are not, and to love God accordingly.
2) for us to love others as we already love ourselves.

(It may have been said before in this very long thread, but I don't have time to read alllllllllllllll of it....)

I completely understand why some would question / worry about a Christian, Jew, Muslim, you name it would claim to have the answer. Unfortunately, most of them, if they have your attention, want something. Whether it is power or money makes no difference. It is a scary thing when someone comes to the forefront claiming that they have the way to enlightenment and you must follow it or you are going to burn eternally. That is neither my intent or insinuation. But I understand that those who have come before the public have done just this (not all of course).

I don't think any one is utterly foolish who is searching for God. I do wonder sometimes why some choose to think there is no creator, but I would not think them foolish either (I was there once myself). I learned a long time ago that what I think I know is a lot more than I really do. I would be very presumptuous to claim that some one is going to go to hell. I am not so sure that God would not get quite upset at such a statement. I do however have qualms with those that say they are Christians (or whatever religion) and do nothing to further their relationship with their God. It amazes me how many experts there are on the Bible who have never read a word in it, or read a snippet here and there, and base an entire opinion / judgement on that. That, to me, is worse than or equal to those who are trying to attain power or money from a religion.

Thank you for your honesty. But I am not promising that all will abide in civility...

Well, I wish I could give you a set of directions on how this works, but even then you would not understand fully. If I tell you how to drive a manual (stick shift), you will have an idea of how it works. But, until you actually do it, you will not understand exactly how to do it. The more you drive it, the better you are able to do so in the future. The more I pray to God, the more I turn my life over to His wants, the more I come to know that I have done His will. I wish I could explain it better, and I know it seems very presumptuous, but that is the best I can do for the moment. In addition, I try to take into account what those I speak with think about faith. Iron sharpens iron, it may be painful, but it makes for better iron if it is allowed to happen.

Well, I never said it was simple or clear all the time. There are easy ones of course, but there are also more difficult ones to deal with.

Take for instance my fathers request for DNR in the ICU. As a Christian, I am to cherish life in all its forms and abhor killing. Without going into detail, my father was dying and nothing could be done about it. He asked not to be awakened to be told he was going to die (he was delirious for the last two weeks of his life from pain). My mother and I went down to the chapel there in the hospital and prayed. There happened to be a Bible there at the pulpit (it was about 2 in the morning) and I opened it up hoping for some wisdom. I opened it up around the middle of the book (it was about six inches thick). It opened to the last page of Revelation (the last book of the Bible for those that don't know). I took it from God that it was the end of my fathers life and I should let him go. We went back up to the room and dad had one more moment of 'awareness' and we talked. He again asked for the DNR, and I agreed to it. That was the hardest most painful moment in my life. But I made it and am not sure if I would be able to do it again. It is not always easy.

If they were a Christian of Jesus' teachings, they would humble themselves to you. They would make sure that you were taken care of and that you knew that you were loved by both humans and God.

If you were a Christian, and were bearing bad fruit (doing things that the Bible clearly says we should not), they might chastise you for those things, but entirely out of love.

If my son (2 1/2 years old) reaches for the wall outlet, I will tell him no. After the second time, I will get up and move him. If he continues to try, or tries to stick something in, it may be time to whip him. Am I being mean to him by disciplining him? I don't think so, even though it may be unfair and painful in his eyes. I am doing something out of love to protect him from dangers he does not know about. There is no malice in me when I do this.

The same can be said of Christian discipline. God did not dictate things to be mean to us. He did not want to limit our happiness here on the Earth He created for us to live on. However, He has laid before us a set of rules we should follow, and as Christians we are to be accountable to each other for our actions.

If you were not a Christian, they would try to be the best example of what a Christian is supposed to be in hopes that someday you would ask them about it.

I am not sure that I disagree, however, I hope that you would not let them see or know that. It would be a horrible insult to them. Much of our religion is from our surroundings as we grow up; Many will hold to those as gospel no matter what, some will fall away all together, and some will try to find out for themselves what life and God are about. I like what my pastor says, 'We are all in process, and will never be any different until we get to Heaven'.

One thing I have learned in the not too distant past was things that seemed obvious were not necessarily so. There are a lot of miscommunications that can happen from language. Make sure that all parties involved mean the same thing when they are talking. 'Moral high ground' is just a small example of that in this thread.

I sure hope so. I have learned a few things myself already, through the course of confirming things I have read years ago to compile my thoughts and answer questions.

Man, that was very eloquently stated. Wish mine had been this short

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 36-40 NIV)

Thank you for the quote Magnus (although Ulrika will skip it now, which may or may not be a good thing).

My previous compliment was the fact that you re-wrote the first law without using it and seemingly including more in that one line than this small snippet of Scripture does regarding our relationship with God.

oh yes, indeed, i just wanted to include the original, to source my amplified paraphrase.

Yes I know, I know about Ulrika .... ironically Ulrika is zealously religious.... I just don't think she realizes it.