Religeous Two Week Fire Gap

'Belittling' is subjective, Kevn.

Let's use a hypothetical example:

If I were tell you that I feel most religious people are mindless sheep who follow in the footsteps of a mythical being and need someone else to tell them what is 'right' - why, that could be construed as 'belittling' even though it is *my* opinion.

Excellent form of censorship, however. I'll have to remember that one.

Go get a bunch of Catholics together and explain to them calmly and rationally that you think they're wrong about Mary and see how many of them complain that you're belittling them. I bet you there'll be at least one. Humans are like that when you disagree with ideas they hold sacred. The real problem isn't disagreeing, it's believing any ideas are sacred in the first place, in my opinion.

I take exception to this post. Christians in this forum are being targeted by individuals IN THIS FORUM. Show me one Christian IN THIS FORUM who is targeting you.

I feel belittled by Kevn telling us what to do and what not to do rather than affirming that we have our own free will. I'd report him, but that wouldn't be very Christian of me.

Gladly. I'll compile a list.. in the meantime:

What are your opinions on gay marriage?

Perfect timing, Chip.

You just shut your eyes, mash the keyboard and hope for the best when you post, don't you?

Live and let live is what I want. All I've been asking for, for weeks now, is for people to back off and leave us Christians alone. I don't want you to come to church. I don't want you to read the bible. I don't want your money. And I don't hate you if you're athiest. I just want people to stop attacking Christians.

LoL.

From my perspective, if you don't want to debate your faith, then don't enter an argument suggesting that intelligent design is a scientific theory. One hallmark of a scientific theory is that people can say it is bunk, and offer rational arguments against it, without persecuting or bashing its proponents.

I suppose by some logic here I can ask the Chirstians in the forum to stop bashing my evolution?

If you can give me a list, I'll go on record as to say I'd like them to stop. Personally Juro, I think you should be free to live your life. I have no objections whatsoever to you doing your thing.

As for my opinions on gay marriage? I don't have any, it's not an issue I have to consider in my life. I have been engaged to my fiancee for some time and she is female. So Gay Marriage is not an issue on which I currently take a stand.

Yes, it would be a rude thing to do. Reteric only incites those you wish to convince. If one truly wants to inform someone, it must be done in a way that can be received by the listner. If they don't care about the listener, why should they waste the time saying anything?

It clearly is belittling to call people names and rag their beliefs. So I would hope we could open our minds to each other, and hold our tongue(fingers) when we feellike jabbing at someone because we think they are an idiot. Adult conversations are different than high school. We allow for differing opinions and try to politely share our ideas.

My family feels the same way about the rights of minorities. Maybe we're related.

I don't think anyone was warned for arguing for one side or the other. It was the belittling comments.

Surely, you can see and appreciate my unique situation, Jsecure. You, yourself, may not directly contribute to my current lack of support by my government for my relationship, but your religious organization probably does. I'm betting that there are people in your church who do not support it at all because of religious convictions.

It's very easy for people to wash thier hands of a topic and not formulate an opinion on it when it doesn't affect them directly. As I expressed to Coco -

you were smart enough to give a carefully formulated answer so as not to appear to be a hypocritical bigot by saying 'gays dont deserve marriage' and not breach any potential religious convictions by supporting it.

If you've truly not thought about it maybe you should - there are tens of thousands of families waiting for answers.

You are implying that because I do not take a stand either way, I am against gay marriages or somehow causing an injustice.

This is inaccurate, unfair and unrealistic.

When one side argues their point based on supposition intrinsically tied to the beliefs of their sect, then that belief itself comes into question and is subject to ridicule, argument, and satire. When you question science, you do the exact same thing. That is not the same as belittling. Stop being a victim.

Stop.

Juro, just because some Christians are against gay marriages, that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to attack me. But that's basically what you're saying in the above. Some Christians are against gay marriages, and probably you go to church with some of them - guilt by association.

You need to stop that. If you have an issue with X persons being against gay marriages, take it to the man. I'm not in America, and I'm not opposing gay marriages here in the UK. If you're having some issues with gay marriage support in the USA, take it to the people responsible, not me just because I'm a Christian. That's not fair. That's judging me by my religeon. That's textbook prejudice.

Or maybe it IS the same, in which case you do it too. Either way, stop.

I'm sorry we disagree. Ridicule and satire at the expense of others is never acceptable.

Cool, that means you cannot question science because all the believers in it will take it personally. Do you understand? You cannot argue two opposing points without considering the forumlation of the beliefs supporting those points. If argumentation bothers you, then don't engage in it.

You asked me what my stand on gay marriages is, and then whined that it must be OK to take pot shots at me because I'm a Christian, and some Christians have got in your way, and maybe some of the offending Christians might even 'be at my Church'...

You may not have insulted me (yet) but trying to justify having a go at Christians like me in this forum cause some other Christian in some other place at some other time annoyed you is not on.

We probably should be discussing this in another thread, Juro - but I want to give you my most honest reply I can, to YOU, Juro, never mind anyone else who may beat me up for laying myself so open, on such a controversial subject. But you sincerely asked, so I will elaborate. The truth is, I haven't formulated my position on it yet. That's probably because I'm in the process of changing my views on it.

I understand the desire gays have to be married. I have zero problem understanding that. (And I never thought of it in terms of being "deserving" or anything.) I worried some about what I read about Scandanavian countries having higher divorce rates among heterosexuals after allowing gay marriage, because I am hugely into the sanctity of marriage thing, and don't want to see that useful institution lose more of its strength and meaning by the time my girls get married, and their children come of age to get married.

But I'm not sure I believe those statistics. I mean, maybe the numbers are real, but I bet there are other things going on causing their decline of marriages rather than the ability of gays to marry. And - what if the person my girls wanted to marry was a girl? Wouldn't I rather her be married to the girl, than not married?

Secondly, on a certain level gay marriage just seems weird and odd to me. Then again, what does it matter if it seems weird to me? I'm not the one in it. I had an experience in TSO that was very unsettling to me. Because I had no idea of the DEPTH of the desire of some gays to marry. It was only the third time something in an online game ever caused me to cry. This gay girl asked me if I was against gay marriage, and I said, I wouldn't vote for it. Well, she just became apoplectic and couldn't be my friend afterwords. I hadn't meant to hurt her, and I couldn't understand the depth of her unhappiness over my reply. We tried to talk it out, but I lost the friendship of two really neat ladies over it. And there was no way of making what I had said seem less hurtful to them.

But I was enormously upset at having upset her so, and knowing I had wounded her and mostly her girlfriend beyond their ability to be friends with me. So since then, I have been more carefully weighing what could actually be lost by allowing gays to marry, after all, versus what could be gained by it.

The bottom line for all things, to me, is the humanity (or lack thereof) in a thing. Is it humane to put roadblocks in the way of anyone expressing their love? Is that consideration, then, more important than whatever "weirdness" the concept seems to hold for me, or regarding some statistics in Scandinavia and my fear around the decline of marriage in general? And who am I, or who is anybody, really, to decide that gays shouldn't be able to express their love and commitment as fully as I'm allowed to?

When my friend got so upset, that when I first realized the depth of frustration this must cause to them, and to others who want to marry.

Moreover, is the sanctity of marriage and the foundation it affords for a better and more meaningful and lasting love somehow diminished if even more people partake of the same symbolism? And yet - what is this that holds me back about it? Is it just because it doesn't seem natural to me?

So I mean it when I say I haven't formulated my opinion on it yet. It is a carefully formulated answer, but not a dishonest one. Because - I have to tell you - hurting that online friend for even a minute (and she wasn't this real close friend or anything, but you know what I mean) - is that worth my not voting gay marriage to be allowed? In other words, if people are that hurt by not being allowed to marry, are my fears over the decline of marriage, and my long-held notions of what marriage is supposed to be, or what is natural and what isn't, hold anywhere near of a candle to the pain that might cause others?

I was surprised by her emotional response. But - it was educational and enlightening. I have this other, closer online friend, and I would rather slit my wrists than cause him a moment's pain in this, or ANY regard. So yes, I have been giving it thought, off and on, since about a year ago when this happened. So, I'm not finished thinking about it, or figuring out my internal contradictions about it. But if I was given to vote on it today, I would vote for it. I would be nervous and conflicted about it, but I would just have to vote for it, so as not to vote against it.

So there you have it - that is what you intuited, Juro.

coco

P.S. As for religious convictions, I don't have any religious convictions about it to speak of. Part of me is certain God wouldn't be crazy about it, but I'm also certain Jesus would vote for it, if he lived in this day and age. I think I'm tending toward the Jesus side of it, lol.

Please, make every argument to prove God doesn't exist. And I'll make arguments life had to have a designer. Life is too complex to arise from non-living matter by logical deduction.

Coco, that was a really lovely and honest post.