Religeous Two Week Fire Gap
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-03-2005 11:55
From: Desmond Shang I think the real discussion points were dodged long ago.
Kevn truly had to demonstrate that 10^50 statistic has meaning, and engage Ulrika's questions regarding natural selection in a meaningful way.
And show how 10^50 *must* be the odds, refute Ulrika's questions or surrender the point.
Then we could talk about abiogenesis, sure.
- Desmond Shang Desmond, That discussion was from a different thread. Here we find ourselves with the question of abiogenesis being accepted as fact and taught to children in schools as fact. My point (in this thread) was that if school children are to be taught the atheist's faith of abiogenisis as fact, since atheism is a religion with it's own faith, in competition with religion for the hearts and minds of children, it's unfair to give the atheist religion free access to the future generation yet deny the other side to even be discussed. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-03-2005 11:59
From: Roland Hauptmann But I don't believe that there is no God... Because those people are fostering irrational beliefs.
So, you're certainly right that I don't want to be associated with that belief structure. Because it makes no sense. If you don't believe there is no god, but also don't believe there is a god, you're an atheist. Welcome to the club. You're drawing the line between theism and atheism in the wrong spot. It's not determined by wether or not you believe with certainty there is no god. It's determined by whether or not you believe with certainty there is one. I agree with you that anyone who claims certainty about something that can't currently be known is irrational. I believe that the chances there is a god are so incredibly remote that it hardly deserves any consideration, but I also allow for that remote possibility... like the vast majority of atheists. You're an atheist, Roland.
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-03-2005 11:59
From: Kendra Bancroft Here's my answer.
I already exist in heaven. It's here on this earth and in my life.
Other people choose to live in hell on this earth.
Eternity exists only in the now.
When I die, I die. I will cease to exist. I'm good with that.
I don't believe in a "God". I don't believe in an "afterlife".
In short, your question is (to me) absurd. It was hypothetical. But never mind. I don't explect an answer. But I do hope you answer it within. |
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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11-03-2005 12:00
From: Kendra Bancroft Here's my answer.
I already exist in heaven. It's here on this earth and in my life.
Other people choose to live in hell on this earth.
Eternity exists only in the now.
When I die, I die. I will cease to exist. I'm good with that.
I don't believe in a "God". I don't believe in an "afterlife".
In short, your question is (to me) absurd. ::Memory stands up:::: clap clap clap clap clap clap clap |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-03-2005 12:01
From: Chip Midnight You don't have to believe firmly there is no god to be an atheist. Anyone who is not a theist is an atheist. I don't know how many times I have to explain that. It's pure common sense.
Cris, it is not at all a stretch. Atheists are the most marginalized and persecuted minority on the planet. They remain that way because so called "agnostics" who are not convinced there is a god, all of whom are atheists, refuse to stand up. Now if all of those people are atheists, why do so few call themselves atheists? hmmmmmm, I wonder. There are only two possible reasons... one, they don't know any better, or two, they don't want to be associated with the stigma of atheism. Chances are if they do it because of the first reason, they learned the practice from someone else because of the second reason.
People can squirm around the issue all they like, but there is no middle ground between theism and atheism. You are either convinced there is a god, or not. How anyone can refute that is beyond my meager cognitive abilities. To the question "do you believe there is a god" the only possible answers are yes and no. "I don't know" is still no. "I haven't decided" is still no. "Not yet" is still no. All of those answers preclude theism, and all who are not theists are atheists. The qualifiers are beside the point.
In my strongly held opinion, anyone who denies the above, who is not convinced there is a god, is in denial or is afraid. As always, I think it is a huge stretch, and arrogant, to speak to anyone else's motivations except your own. Many people spend their entire lives struggling with the existence of God, and you are in no position to say they are afraid or in denial because they are uncertain. The same argument that you used that saying you are uncertain is still no can actually be reversed. By your logic, agnostics are also theists. They aren't certain there is no god, so there is a God - it is a yes. It cuts both ways, Chip - you are just biased to viewing it only one way, which is your right, but that doesn't mean it is accurate.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:01
From: Kevn Klein Desmond,
That discussion was from a different thread. Here we find ourselves with the question of abiogenesis being accepted as fact and taught to children in schools as fact.
My point (in this thread) was that if school children are to be taught the atheist's faith of abiogenisis as fact, since atheism is a religion with it's own faith, in competition with religion for the hearts and minds of children, it's unfair to give the atheist religion free access to the future generation yet deny the other side to even be discussed. Jesus Christ -- here we go again. |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-03-2005 12:03
From: Kendra Bancroft Jesus Christ -- here we go again. There is still time to derail the thread and speculate on what will happen on the new season of the L Word.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:05
From: Kevn Klein It was hypothetical. But never mind. I don't explect an answer. But I do hope you answer it within. I'm sorry you have chosen hell on this earth. It must be painful to be so judgemental. |
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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Contrapunto
11-03-2005 12:05
From: Ellie Edo
Maybe in the history of existence a few absolutely determined souls have been so maniacally bent on self-punishment that they have believed themselves into fiery flames, but it would take a huge effort of will, beyond the capability of ordinary folk.
Now when the darkness came over the earth Joseph of Arimathea, having lighted a torch of pinewood, passed down from the hill into the valley. For he had business in his own home. And kneeling on the flint stones of the Valley of Desolation he saw a young man who was naked and weeping. His hair was the colour of honey, and his body was as a white flower, but he had wounded his body with thorns and on his hair had he set ashes as a crown. And he who had great possessions said to the young man who was naked and weeping, 'I do not wonder that your sorrow is so great, for surely He was a just man.' And the young man answered, 'It is not for Him that I am weeping, but for myself. I too have changed water into wine, and I have healed the leper and given sight to the blind. I have walked upon the waters, and from the dwellers in the tombs I have cast out devils. I have fed the hungry in the desert where there was no food, and I have raised the dead from their narrow houses, and at my bidding and before a great multitude of people, a barren fig-tree withered away. All things that this man has done I have done also. And yet they have not crucified me.' ~ Oscar Wilde, "The Master" |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-03-2005 12:05
From: Cocoanut Koala So, that is how I see it. And those definitions are what my family used in discussing it.
P.S. I don't think I am either in denial or afraid. Coco, if you're not, you were taught by someone who was, or they were taught by someone who was. The same goes for the person who coined the term, and the writers of dictionary definitions. putting an "a" in front of "theism" doesn't preclude the range of possible positions, it contains them. Cris, I understand why you and others feel that way. You're right, it is the result of bias. It's just not mine.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:07
From: Cristiano Midnight There is still time to derail the thread and speculate on what will happen on the new season of the L Word. I know!!!! It's getting so juicy!! |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:08
From: Memory Harker Now when the darkness came over the earth Joseph of Arimathea, having lighted a torch of pinewood, passed down from the hill into the valley. For he had business in his own home.
And kneeling on the flint stones of the Valley of Desolation he saw a young man who was naked and weeping. His hair was the colour of honey, and his body was as a white flower, but he had wounded his body with thorns and on his hair had he set ashes as a crown.
And he who had great possessions said to the young man who was naked and weeping, 'I do not wonder that your sorrow is so great, for surely He was a just man.'
And the young man answered, 'It is not for Him that I am weeping, but for myself. I too have changed water into wine, and I have healed the leper and given sight to the blind. I have walked upon the waters, and from the dwellers in the tombs I have cast out devils. I have fed the hungry in the desert where there was no food, and I have raised the dead from their narrow houses, and at my bidding, and before a great multitude, of people, a barren fig- tree withered away. All things that this man has done I have done also. And yet they have not crucified me.'
~ Oscar Wilde, "The Master" stop this at once, or I shall fall madly in love with you. |
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Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
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11-03-2005 12:10
I know quite a few Christian agnostics. In fact most of the members of my father's church would describe themselves this way, or more likely simply as "seekers".
"I do not have a belief" is not an admission of cowardice, it is a true statement for many, many people. Your (a-)theistic dichotomy presumes that everyone has a concrete belief about God. This is not the case.
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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11-03-2005 12:10
From: Cristiano Midnight There is still time to derail the thread and speculate on what will happen on the new season of the L Word. No, no, hold on a second! We stilll haven't defined what "is" is!  |
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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11-03-2005 12:12
From: Chip Midnight
People can squirm around the issue all they like, but there is no middle ground between theism and atheism. You are either convinced there is a god, or not. How anyone can refute that is beyond my meager cognitive abilities. To the question "do you believe there is a god" the only possible answers are yes and no.
Is "sometimes" a yes or a no?
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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11-03-2005 12:12
From: Kendra Bancroft stop this at once, or I shall fall madly in love with you. Awwws ... Would you consider building a wedding chapel for Seldon and Maeve instead? |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-03-2005 12:13
From: Memory Harker No, no, hold on a second! We stilll haven't defined what "is" is! Ok well hurry up, because we need to be talking about lesbians. Everybody loves lesbians.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:14
From: Memory Harker Awwws ...
Would you consider building a wedding chapel for Seldon and Maeve instead? They can get married in the church in Neualtenburg  |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-03-2005 12:14
From: Cristiano Midnight Ok well hurry up, because we need to be talking about lesbians. Everybody loves lesbians. shut up --Can't you just be a wing-man and let me continue hitting on Memory? |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-03-2005 12:14
From: Flyingroc Chung Is "sometimes" a yes or a no? Neither. It's a call for help.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-03-2005 12:15
From: Kendra Bancroft shut up --Can't you just be a wing-man and let me continue hitting on Memory? I couldn't wait for your slow asses, I started my own thread.
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Roland Hauptmann
Registered User
Join date: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 323
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11-03-2005 12:15
From: Chip Midnight If you don't believe there is no god, but also don't believe there is a god, you're an atheist. Welcome to the club. You're drawing the line between theism and atheism in the wrong spot. It's not determined by wether or not you believe with certainty there is no god. It's determined by whether or not you believe with certainty there is one. I agree with you that anyone who claims certainty about something that can't currently be known is irrational. I believe that the chances there is a god are so incredibly remote that it hardly deserves any consideration, but I also allow for that remote possibility... like the vast majority of atheists. You're an atheist, Roland. I could just as easilly say, "You're an agnostic." The reason I don't call myself an atheist, is because that term is unclear. I want to be very clear that I do not know enough to either believe that there is or that there is not a god. If I called myself an atheist, you would not know that. If I call myself and agnostic, then it's clear. I prefer to use clear terminology. |
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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11-03-2005 12:17
From: Ulrika Zugzwang ... or that there is no giant turtle holding up the universe is unprovable and is thus a religion. Ok, Ulrika, I want to know what's holding up the turtle! What's that, another turtle you say? And what's holding up THAT turtle? And THAT turtle? And the turtle beneath THAT one? <staring too long into the abyss, Logan instantly is transformed into a blob of jello> |
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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11-03-2005 12:19
From: Chip Midnight Neither. It's a call for help. So it *is* possible for a person to be neither a theist nor an atheist?
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Memory Harker
Girl Anachronism
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 393
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11-03-2005 12:19
From: Kendra Bancroft shut up --Can't you just be a wing-man and let me continue hitting on Memory? *turns a deep, deep crimson* |
