Religeous Two Week Fire Gap

If Chip believes there is no god, then no, I don't have a different belief than him. I describe myself as an Atheist also.

I'm not sure which words you're having trouble with understanding.

Because the Christian belief that I will "rot in hell" is a very good place from which to start a non-intimidating discussion.

To do this, would you, perhaps, call it on the bananaphone?

(Maestro, if you please ...)

The point is to make it clear when sharing ideas, it would be wonderful if you say "I am a weak atheist, some call it agnostic but I reject that word because it's wrongly applied."

That would make it more clear what atheist mean to you.

No Chip. What a word means is ultimately determined by how it is used. meanings chage with time. I have researched this one and there is wholesale disagreement between the sources. Both uses are acceptable.

In this situation attempting to agree on a forum usage is pointless, and none of us can claim to be right.

I therefore conclude that for unambiguous communication at this time, the word is useless.

I am utterly at a loss why you keep raising this, as though you are saying something about issues or belief positions, when you are in fact discussing only a disagreement over nomenclature, which is, frankly, not intersting or relevant at all.

Its long winded, but if we just use the phrases "positive belief that god doesnt exist" and "undecided about gods existence" to identify the two positions, then we can get on with the actual discussion without diversions which are without substance.

The only place such questions make sense is in a "etymology and word meanings" thread. With the greatest of respect, why not start one ? Your points are interesting, but only in that other context, not here. Surely you would not disagree with that ?

Meaning of a word ? Meaning of life ? Two different things, yes ?

Who in this thread said you will "rot in hell"?

Nobody yet --but it begs the question, Kevn --do you believe I will rot in hell?

He did, yes. But the qualities and characteristics of the information that emerges from quantum pairing and loss have yet to be determined.



It does push it back a step further. But arguably it can't be pushed back any further than that without becoming the answer to a wholly different question.



Goedel's theorem is relevant only if finite or closed sets are assumed. In open mathematical systems such as vector calculus and gauge transformations, the theorem describes a substrate of undecidables.

It's not strange, and it's not sad.

coco

I'm trying to wrap my head around a couple of your cliams here - i'm not sure how my opinion about people who believe what to me is silly is an attack in any way, and also how it's a personal attack on each and every one of them. I'm wondering if by the same logic, any statement of faith (bearing in mind that I cosider religion to be a form of mental illness) would be trying to incite me?

But I couldn't agree with you more in your last line, people should explore their opinions and never be intimidated to post.

Not all Christians believe that. I would say that part is changing. And there is a lot of theological underpinning for it to be rationally changing.

coco

I keep raising it because the misuse of the terms is a direct result of bigotry, and their continued misuse a perpetuation of bigotry. I feel it is my duty, both as a principled person, and also on behalf of other atheists, to stand up for the truth.

Chip, can you genuinely see no difference between

1. I do not believe that God exists
and
2. I do believe that God does not exist. ??

Can you not see that the "not" applies to the "belief" in one sentence, and to the "existence" in the other.

Each sentence negates something entirely different. How can you possibly see them as the same ?

Your language IS ambiguous. I stil don't know which represents your position, because you seem to have espoused both (1) and (2) at different times. But perhaps if you see them as the same, that explains why. But that would mean that not only is your language ambiguous, but your thought too.

And why, why, is your tone so aggressive, as it has been from the first moment you made these points ? What is the agenda ?

No, that is not how Chip describes his beliefs.

Chip simply does not believe in God. This is significantly different than believing that there is no God.

No, I don't. I think only God can know where people will go and wat they will do. And if you were to be in "hell" it would be because that's where you want to be. Would God be just forcing people into heaven? I think not.

It's this one, Taco.

"religion is a crutch for the mentally ill and/or feeble." (Not to mention the banana analogy.)

To carry it further is even more arrogant. Since most people of the world, now and always in the past, have held religious beliefs, it would follow that most people who ever lived and who now live are mentally ill and/or feeble, whereas atheists are not mentally ill and/or feeble, and thus are intellectually superior and/or more biologically stable in neurological terms to everyone else.

Now, this could in fact, be the case. I don't believe it to be the case, however, and the vast preponderance of evidence indicates that mental health and intelligence are not attributes only of atheists. Or held to a greater degree, or even in just this aspect only, by atheists.

So to state that amounts to an unnecessary attack, and is probably incorrect, to boot.

coco

Yes, I know... which is why I pointed it out in response to your statement:

"Well... this isn't necessarily true - as I'm sure you know. The one way that you can achieve a reasonable amount of omniscience is if you "stand outside" of a closed system as its designer and creator. Since in that circumstance you are, by definition, "causality", you violate no rules of causality - as the rules are your own. "

I think you just made his case, Elle, lol. (Not that I've been following this sub-topic very well.) by the way, your mail is filled.

coco

And yet, I was able to understand what he meant despite the smoke and mirrors. Strange...

cop-out.

Your belief is that I can only ascend to "heaven" by belief in your all powerful magic sky-pixie. Thus you intimate that I have chosen "hell" by not accepting the one true faith, and that the magic sky-pixie chooses to abandon all who do not bend knee.

Of course I can see the difference, Ellie. The point is that both of the above describe an Atheist position. A Lutheran and a Methodist are both Christians. If someone tells you they're a Christian, and then elaborates that they're a Methodist, do you beat them up about calling themselves a Christian because it's not precise? No, of course you don't. The only reason you're doing it to me is because you've been raised in a world where persecuting Atheists is perfectly acceptable and even encouraged. The ignorant notion that all atheists are gnostic atheists is a stereotype that has its roots directly in theist bigotry towards atheists. It's not just about the semantics, it's about why this problem of communication exists in the first place. What angers me the most is that otherwise fair minded people perpetuate the stereotype not knowing what they're doing because being derrogatory to atheists is so socially acceptable. If you can't grasp any of the above the problem is with you, not me.

by request

Well fundamentally the bananna is the tugboat. So teachibg it to pilot the tugboat is unnecessary.

Kendra, Christianity is not one large group of people who believe in exactly the same thing. The common belief among all Christians, however, is that Jesus Christ provided a way for us to reach heaven.

Now some Christians believe that the only way go to heaven is by believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Some Christians believe that only 200,000 believers will go to heaven and the rest of us will rot in hell. However, other Christians, such as myself, believe that through Jesus, God's saving grace applies to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. I believe that when one acts according to one's own belief with good conscience, on can attain heaven.

So no, not all Christians believe you will rot in hell. Here is one Christian who believes that you are as likely to attain heaven as I am. Unfortunately, that means it's very likely we'll meet each other in the fiery pits.