Morning After Pill: Now Without A Perscription!

Yes. Brain development in the third trimester lays the foundation for basic consciousness and perception of pain. Before that the fetus is just tissue. This was presented by Carl Sagan decades ago in a brilliant article that described the development in terms that an average person could understand (I wonder if I could find that article).

Actually, yes. Babies have been successfully removed from the womb during the second trimester and survived to adulthood with a little help from an incubator. I say if the child can survive outside the womb, killing it is murder.

-Kiamat Dusk

And what about the baby's right over her body? Not her fault she's stuck inside you.

-Kiamat Dusk

Pain isn't the issue. I doubt a 2 month old baby understands or remembers pain. The issue is, killing an innocent human being is wrong!

This is hard to sell. Aside from those indoctrinated in religious dogma, most humans instinctively value a living human being more than a fetus. However, as a radical hard-line statement it could surely be rolled into antiabortion dogma (if it already isn't).

Abortion is legal in this country up to and including the day of delivery. A baby that could otherwise live outside the woman's body can still have a fork jammed into the base of his skull and have his brains vacuumed out. Think about it.

There's the doctor handing the swaddled newborn to the mother. Now rewind 5 minutes. That baby can still be aborted. So I repeat Vares' very good question. What is the difference?

5 minutes in this case.

-Kiamat Dusk

A fetus is a living human being.

Innocent? The little monster will probably grow up to be a poorly educated middle-class religious zealot and forum troll.

Good thing this new pill has arrived - preventing conception. Now even anti-abortion folks can be happy.

Or even worse, a poorly educated middle-class anti-religious zealot and forum troll.

Hmm.

"Pro-choice activists categorically insist that only 500 of the 1.5 million abortions performed each year in this country involve the partial-birth method, in which a live fetus is pulled part way into the birth canal before it is aborted ... But interviews with physicians who use the method reveal that in New Jersey alone, at least 1,500 partial-birth abortions are performed each year -- three times the supposed national rate. Moreover, doctors say only a 'minuscule amount' are for medical reasons."

-- "The facts on partial-birth abortion," by Ruth Padawer, adjunct professor at the Columbia Graduate School of Journalism, The Sunday Record (Bergen County, NJ), September 15, 1996

Aren't "third trimester" abortions rare? At what stage in pregnancy do partial-birth abortions occur? Are these babies "viable"?

It appears that the substantial majority of partial-birth abortions are performed late in the second trimester -- that is, before the 27-week mark -- but usually after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months). There is compelling evidence that the overwhelming majority of these pre-week-27 partial-birth abortions are performed for purely "social" reasons.

In an attempt to "filter out" this documentation, many opponents of the bill attempt to narrow the debate to only third-trimester partial-birth abortions procedures -- that is, to abortions performed beginning in the 27th week [seventh month] of pregnancy. Some journalists and commentators have readily adopted this "filter." However, there is really no non-ideological justification for adopting this "third trimester" demarcation. It has no basis in the text of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act (HR 1833), which bans partial-birth abortion at any point in pregnancy. Nor, contrary to some popular misconceptions, is there any basis in current Supreme Court constitutional doctrine or in neo-natal medical practice for adopting a "third trimester" demarcation.

Under the Supreme Court's doctrine, "viability" is regarded as the constitutionally significant demarcation. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992), the Supreme Court explicitly disavowed the "trimester framework" of Roe v. Wade (1973), and reaffirmed that "viability" is (in the Court's view) the constitutionally significant demarcation. "Viability" is the point at which a baby born prematurely can be sustained by good medical assistance. Currently, many babies are "viable" a full three weeks before the "third trimester." Therefore, most partial-birth abortions kill babies who are already "viable," or who are at most a few days or weeks short of viability.

(Even at 20 weeks, the baby is seven inches long on average. And, as discussed below, at a March 21 congressional hearing leading medical authorities testified that the baby by this point is very sensitive to painful stimuli.)

At least one partial-birth abortion specialist, the late Dr. James McMahon, regularly performed the procedure even after 26 weeks-- even into the ninth month. In 1995, Dr. McMahon submitted to the House Judiciary Constitution Subcommittee a graph and explanation that explicitly showed that he aborted healthy ("not flawed" babies even in the third trimester (after 26 weeks of pregnancy). Dr. McMahon's own graph showed, for example, that at 29 or 30 weeks, one-fourth of the aborted babies had no "flaw" however slight. Underneath the graph, Dr. McMahon offered this explanation:

After 26 weeks, those pregnancies that are not flawed are still non-elective. They are interrupted because of maternal risk, rape, incest, psychiatric or pediatric indications. [chart and caption reproduced in June 15 hearing record, page 109]

In an interview with Constitution Subcommittee Counsel Keri Harrison, Dr. McMahon explained that "pediatric indication" referred to underage mothers, not to any medical condition of the mother or the baby.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/pbafact2.html

Not if NOW has their way. In the run up to the Scott Peterson trial NOW was trying to insist that he be charged with only a single count of homicide.

-Kiamat Dusk

I've never understood the incongruity that deifies fetal tissue while disregarding those born. I swear, if they put in half the effort into stopping war, expanding welfare, and increasing wages, this world would be a better place.

Then I say we throw out the "it takes two to tango" line when it comes to forced child support from a man who didn't want to be a dad anyway.

As I've said before...
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-Kiamat Dusk

Interesting link! Thank you.

Deal. So, I'm glad we could finally settle this.

Then you've never met an abortion doctor/nurse.

-Kiamat Dusk

Extending welfare? So more people can sit home and smoke crack while watching Jerry Springer off the sweat of my brow? Welfare states lead to rampant unemployment and lazy societies. Look what happened in France when they tried to make it easier for employers to fire lazy workers? Look at the catastrophe of the USSR. Or the misery of your average orth Korean.

And wage increases will just make the American worker too expensive to hire and companies will just go elsewhere leaving millions of unemployed Americans behind to further burden your welfare system.

The Free Market works.

And back on topic. If you can now pop a pill right after sex and ensure that you won't get pregnant, your excuses for abortion later on are drastically reduced.

It's amazing how seal fetuses have more protection than our own. No wonder the Liberal birth rate is decreasing .


Add to that the fact that the founder of Planned Parenthood was a eugenics fan who felt we needed far fewer blacks in this country.
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-Kiamat Dusk

Exactly. They're priceless in the womb and lazy crack smokers out of the womb. You people are hysterical.

Oh, so it's "you people" is it? And what sort of people would that be, Uma? Black people? The same people you want to see keep inflicting genocide on themselves through wide spread and freely available abortions? Or the ones you want to keep in poverty and beholden to you via your expanded welfare?

A fetus has infinite potential but no choice. A lazy crack smoker still has infinite potential, but has made his own choices.

This country promises equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

And you remain in all your forms Uma, living proof that education does not equal wisdom and all the $5 words in the dictionary don't make you right.

-Kiamat Dusk