Let's see if I understand your point of view...

I wonder the same thing. Seems like a no-brainer to me, especially since we have the largest percentage of our population in prison of any nation on Earth. If we don't want the prison system to be used as a tool to silence dissent and as an instrument of class warfare then we need to allow everyone their vote.

Good one!

/me bows.

oh yeah, I'm a sneaky bastard with a hidden agenda. I've actually started all of about 3 (perhaps a few more, but you get the idea) threads on anything political in all the years I've been in SL.

Typically I enter a thread where there is an obvious agenda and do my best to addd some balance to an otherwise out of control left-wing hate parade (from people like you and your dailykos friends). I'm then usually attacked as a brainwashed idiot doing the bidding of GW, Rush Limbaugh, Karl Rove, Christian Radicals, or just plain acting like a fool.

There have been many times that I've grown frustrated with the lunacy of some of the outrageous remarks made in typical anti-US, anti-Bush threads that I have lost my self-control and resorted to outrageous and intentionally hurtful comments.

So, condemn me if you'd like. I'm human and I'm a bit tired of jackasses who have no desire to just discuss their point of view on an issue without insisting that everyone else is a murderer or a idiot. Though I can be accussed of the same tactics, I try to reel myself in as often as possible.

Perhaps you think I was completely unreasonable in another thread in which we engaged recently? I think I showed you adequate respect despite our disagreement and miscommunication.

If you don't want to participate in this thread then all I ask is that you resist the urge to suggest that I'm about to attack someone becausse they dared to respond in a sincere manner.

Like Corvus in the second post, being lazy and/or ridiculous will not be tolorated by me. If you need the attention seek it elsewhere. There is no poll. I've already given you a list. If yoou want check the boxes that apply and add some commentary. You may learn something about yourself and others if you can be honest.

It has been a pleasure discussing this with you.

___ decriminalization of drugs...the druggies had petitions for this, but they forgot where the put them!
___ assisted suicide...we already have this, it's called CAPITOL PUNISHMENT
___ voting rights for felons...sure, lets let the people stupid enough to get caught doing something that they werent supposed to be doing have a say in who our leaders will be
___ gay marriage...i'll just leave this one alone
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan...have to think about this one
__x_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament...nice thought, but it'll never happen!
_x__ forced redistribution of wealth...sure, just be sure to give me my share!
__x_ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic...this should be changed to the elimination of ALL religous deities in public
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran...no, they are dealing in absolutes, so lets deal with them ABSOLUTELY!
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases...news flash...THEY DONT WANT US TO COMPLETELY WITHDRAW OUR TROOPS!
___ cut US military spending by at least half...
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens...HELL NO !
___ Complete open borders...SEE ABOVE!
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court...no
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”sure, lets "talk" with them...them put them in "common ground"...its called a CEMETARY!

Let open this up and make it a meta-discussion.

Why does it matter what others think? We all have our own believe sets. There will always be some misguided individuals who see things another way.

People, processes, and things make civilized society function. They work just fine whether or not we agree about politics. Arguably having many points of view makes society more efficient rather than less.

So don't worry. Be happy. And tune out the dross.

I've given it a slight twist, as i'm not a US citizen.

NOTE: Dutch Centric issues

DONE - decriminalization of drugs
This works more or less in respect of not prosecuting use and posession. The problem is changing the supply chain. These are in the hands of big criminal orginazitions, which don't stop at just supplying drugs in their criminal activities. It's not easy to 'legalize' these organizations. So this would mean, respectable companies should take their place. I wouldn't try competing with these organizations, i would get killed.

DONE - assisted suicide
Euthanasia is currently legal, but needs a lot of paperwork and checks. And the performing doctor is essentially responsible. If he makes a clerical or judgement error, he can be prosecuted for murder. So the effect of legalizing euthanasia is that there are still a lot of doctors who will keep the process a secret, to protect themselves. The same is the case for abortion, for that matter. It's still a good first step though, but it won't fix the current problems of illegal acts.

DONE - voting rights for felons

DONE - gay marriage
The whole concept of 'straight marriage' and 'gay marriage' has nothing to do with how the government should treat you. Even when you're not married but live together permanently, it should be possible to get the same benefits as married people. Marriage is a religuous concept and has no place in state politics. So marriage and the official governmental contract (and benefits) of living together on a permanent basis should be complete separate.

NO - stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
Support to both Isreal and Taiwan should be on the same level as any other country. If the UN decides there are boycotts necessary, then countries should comply. Unilateral thinking doesn't work, in either situation (support or boycott)

NO - complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
(unilateral decisions on this level won't work either, they need to be done under complete NATO control, as these decisions reach much further than just the US.

DONE/NO - forced redistribution of wealth
It all depends on which level of redistribution is meant. A system where the rich are taxed relatively higher (income based tax levels) is fairly common in most countries. Also wealth taxes are quite common in a lot of european countries. A total redistribution of wealth on marxist grounds is complete nonsense and would ruin the economy though.

NO - elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
Religious messages fall as much under 'freedom of speech' as any other form of public messages. The state/government itself should refrain from any religiously tinted commentary as much as possible though. Religion and state affairs don't mix.

NO - normal relations with North Korea and Iran
See Isreal/Taiwan.

NO - complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
It depends what people are doing overseas. If you refer to the illegal unilateral torture and interragation camps. Absolutely. If you refer to any operations to protect citizens in conflict areas; no. But in those situations impartial observers to keep a clear overview of the political situation are very important.

DONE - cut Dutch military spending by at least half
Dutch military changed in the last decade from a big massive organization, more and more into a precision, highspeed taskforce. Mostly meant for peace missions overseas. I think the current role of the US, thinking their massive army is the 'world police' is not really helping to create a basis of equality. Next to that, any relations between arms companies and politicians should be public, and scrutinized. (Same for oil companies, and construction/project management companies etc.)

NO - free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
Free healthcare and education, within limits. Direct help where it can be given is fine and offering people a basis to be able to function in society.
With current population growth, levels of immigration etc., it would be a pipe dream to believe the budget is available to offer all these things freely. Even when huge cuts are made in all other areas, and taxes are raised.

NO - Complete open borders
It's no use regulating citizenship with free open borders. This will directly impact all situations of integration, health care, education. And distribution of wealth earlier mentioned. Without any regulation at the gate, you only shift to problem to the next stage.

DONE - allow Dutch citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
(we organize the world court)

DONE - talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”
(although the road to take is through the muslim relgious leaders, several projects are running to increase better integration in our society)

How would you characterize relations between the ethnically Dutch and the Muslim communities in your country? I remember when I visited there, Amsterdam struck me as one of the most tolerant communities on earth. Has that changed since the Van Gogh incident? I've heard news reports about the issue, but I'm interested in your perspective

I think it matters because we are not a series of individuals, we are a community. At some level we need to trust that there will be a certain level of cooperation, even if that only means that we respect the spirit of the TOS (community contract).

Beyond that nobody wants to be part of a community where they are judged as worthless or harmful simply because of their ideas. So, it begs the question: How should anyone respond to marginalization? I don't agree that "don't like it, go somewhere else" is an appropriate or reasonable way to handle marginalization.

That's all I can think to say on the issue right now. I wasn't expecting a "Why should we care what others think" line of questioning..very interesting. I would just reiterate that it is very important that we know what others think because we are often required to depend on others as cooperative partners (in a number of ways).

There's been both a shift in public opinion and in government policy to the right. (No that strange in a democracy . This happened before the Van Gogh incident though, and basically started with Pim Fortuyn (a more or less dissident political figure, who directly attacked the way the government was acting at that time, got a huge following, but was killed by a left-wing radical).

It caused a change in government policy, as on reflection, some of the 'tolerance' preached since the 70s, and seen as one of the greater goods of dutch society, had over the years changed more into a form of 'laissez fair, laissez passer', where actually confronting problems based on differences in ethnical and social background was more or less 'taboo'.

The result was that these problems were finally being seen in a more 'practical' view (which is good), but also that the a lot of the public now tended to generalize social problems more towards ethnic and religious background. And the resulting reaction of these ethnic groups to feel less and less accepted in dutch society. Ofcourse all the things happening on an international level didn't much help in this respect.
The Van Gogh murder is probably a direct result of this shift.

ATM the right wing parties have changed a lot of the governmental policies. Immigration law is much more strict, and the amount of foreign immigrants has declined immensely. Mostly because Holland is no longer seen as a 'freehaven'. Also illegal alien procecution is much more harsh.

Atm, the situation is pretty much as in most other european countries, i'm afraid. There are small extremists groups, which are closely guarded by the internal security agencies. A large part of the population is weary of foreigners, and a large group of Muslims feel 'secluded' from dutch society. There is a lot of effort, both from the Muslim society and dutch government, to breach these gaps. But it's very hard to change current opinion for both groups.

Thanks for your point of view, Damanios. I really appreciate it!

Just run the gambit of X's for me will you?

Shhhhhh... they're listening...

___ assisted suicide (We do it to animals when they're suffering... I'd rather die than be in extreme pain for the rest of my life )
___ gay marriage (I don't see why we can't! It's not fair honestly... )
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic (Why do we? I mean, it's cute and all, but I don't do the religion thing )
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran (I'd rather not get blown up a few years from now )
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground” (Why can't we all just get along? )

Most of these are far too extreme to just check, but some I definitely support in a logical and well thought out process.

ya know --when I saw that I honestly read it as "convicts".

I think it's fine to have ex-convicts vote.

We all tend to extrapolate from a few unpleasant instances. That doesn't mean there's a real pattern of discrimination.

This also depends strongly on venue. On conservative political websites, others might feel feel marginalized.

First one has to determine if marginalization exists.

Take Second Life. Presumably one could put up campaign stickers, pipe in a Limbaugh stream to your club, etc.

Other political beliefs exist in SL, but that doesn't mean you're marginalized.

I meant, "Why should we allow other peoples' beliefs to affect us if we don't have to?"

Assume I go into business with someone. I'm not interested if their politics are the same as mine. Political belief isn't that good at predicting how we'll do as business partners.

I would't say "marginalized" either. I'd say outright attacked, if you voice an opinion in opposition to some of the more vocal posters. IE, calling a veteran a murderer, a discussion opponent an "abortion survivor," etc. Nasty stuff and totally uncalled for and unproductive.

Check any of the following issues you SUPPORT:

NOTE: US Centric issues


___ decriminalization of drugs
__x_ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
__x_ gay marriage
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
__x_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
__x_ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
___ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
__x_ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
__x_ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”

X__ decriminalization of drugs
__X_ assisted suicide
___X voting rights for felons
_X__ gay marriage
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan ( no not all, just make it a little more fair)
_X__ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
__X_ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic ( and while we are at it, let's relegate the bible to the FICTION shelves)
__X_ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
__X_ cut US military spending by at least half
_X__ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens (FOR EVERYONE!!!)
___ Complete open borders( now you're just being silly)
__X_ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court (ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!!!)
_X__ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”

Wait, not to be rude or critical, but in the liberal or conservative thread you said you were a “staunch conservative”. Yet the views you show here are clearly more liberal than conservative.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a troll about this, but it confuses me.

_X_ decriminalization of drugs
_X_ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
___ gay marriage Let's keep this a state issue and out of the constitution)
_X_ stop all support for Taiwan
___ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
_X_ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
___ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”

-------------------------
Briana Dawson

She was joking in the other thread

Almost nobody changes anyone's mind in flame wars. Most don't find flame wars all that fun. The point is to have fun and make discussions interesting.

Duh...ok...now I feel stupid.

I have to admit, I was pretty shocked when I read it.