Let's see if I understand your point of view...

Check any of the following issues you SUPPORT:

NOTE: US Centric issues


___ decriminalization of drugs
___ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
___ gay marriage
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
___ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
___ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”

umm...poll?

no, there is no pie in this thread. If you want to participate, you have to expend some energy

Check any of the following issues you SUPPORT:


__X_ decriminalization of drugs (SOME drugs)
___ assisted suicide (mixed feelings)
___ voting rights for felons
_X__ gay marriage (why shouldn't they be as miserable as the rest of us?)
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
___ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament (Will never happen)
___ forced redistribution of wealth (only if they give it all to me)
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic (*waits for lightening bolt*)
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran (can admit I don't know enough to comment)
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
___ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens (Free health care and education for the CHILDREN of illegal aliens only)
___ Complete open borders
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground”

__X_ decriminalization of drugs --Not all drugs, not heroin, pcpm crack or meth, Not the really HARD drugs
_X__ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
_X__ gay marriage
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
___ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
_X__ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
_X__ cut US military spending by at least half -- But I'd say by a quarter, not half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
_X__ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground” --- Talk, not capitulation, talk

_X_ decriminalization of drugs [Edit: and free help for kicking them]
_X_ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
_X_ gay marriage
___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
_X_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
_X_ forced redistribution of wealth
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
___ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
_X_ Complete open borders
_X_ allow US citizen soldiers to be prosecuted in the world court
_X_ talk with muslim extremists to find “common

Erm well, lets look at this from a different perspective:

Take some of the social issues from that list:
We already have gay marriage in the UK and in many other European countries. Assisted suicides are available in several European countries including Belgium, Switzerland and the Netherlands. Free health care and education? Well those have been around in Britain for some time (though the Blair government are not the safest pair of hands for the welfare state...) and to a greater or lesser degree in much of Europe.

Perhaps you should be asking why the US lags so far behind Europe on much of its social policy?

_x_ decriminalization of drugs (and the immediate unconditional pardon of those incarcerated for drug-only "crimes"
_x_ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
_x_ gay marriage
_x_ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
_x_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
_x_ forced redistribution of wealth (and revocation, immediately, of corporate personhood)
_x_ elimination of all reference to GOD in public (which is not to say that private individuals shouldn't be allowed to say "god" but merely that there should be no state support at all for that ridiculous fantasy)
_x_ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
_x_ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
_x_ cut US military spending by at least half (far, far more than half)
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
_x_ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find "common ground"

Because we're a former republic turned well-disguised police state pretending to be a democracy, even though there is, nowhere in the world, an actual democracy. Anywhere.

Gotta love us. Or we'll imprison you indefinitely without trial or a word of explanation.

_?__ decriminalization of drugs
Depends on which. Not a fan of any of them (anymore ) but I think some should be handled along the lines of alcohol.

_X__ assisted suicide
Fundamentally believe a person should have the right to say enough is enough in their own life.

_?__ voting rights for felons
Very mixed feelings on this. I don't it should be done on an all-yes or all-no basis. You can get a felony conviction for driving 20 mph over the speed limit or for mass murder. There's a lot of territory in between.

_X__ gay marriage
Why not? I see no downside to it.

___ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
Oh hell no.

___ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
Oh hell no. Would be nice if we could, but not as things are now.

___ forced redistribution of wealth
... because it's worked so well before

_?__ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
Not elimination, no. But it sure could be toned down a few notches.

___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
Would be a good goal for the future, but not with the present governments. Wish we had done more of this before the current nutjob in Iran came to power.

___ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
No, but maybe reduce a few of them. I think Germany is safe from the Soviet menace now.

___ cut US military spending by at least half
Again, nice goal for the future, but not today.

___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
Shyeah, when I get free health care. I don't think illegal alients/undocumented workers/your favorite term here should be kept from education. And they're going to drive anyway, might as well license it.

___ Complete open borders
Depends on what you mean by that. Totally unlimited immigration? No. But it irritates me that I'll soon need a passport to go to Canada.

_?__ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
In principle I support it. In reality, I don't trust it. I think the UN has been on occasion bent to the will of blocks of countries who want to further certain agendas.

_X But...__ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground."
Sure, go ahead and talk. Just don't expect to find common ground.

Or not-so-well disguised.

And you (sorry, it is difficult to choose the correct pronoun here) have already imprisoned UK citizens in Guantanamo Bay without trial or recourse.

I have no desire to judge the value of any of these issues. Perhaps some of the wording is biased, but I constructed the list from another list I found as part of comments to a blog.

This thread is US centric. I will edit the topic to notify potential readers that it is focused on US issues.

Thanks for the reminder

Well, when I say well-disguised, I mean to say that the sheer breadth and quality of information control within our borders is quite amazing. It's really the case that your average American has no clue how compromised our network news really is, and frankly, your average American gets most of his/her news from that source.

But yes, we do that. I really don't know what to tell you. Our voting system is wholly compromised as well, so don't look to us to "vote the bastards out" -- even those of us who get it have no actual ability to do that. Sorry.

I have seen Fox "News" so you have my sympathy Alex.

NOTE: US Centric issues


__x_ decriminalization of drugs
___ assisted suicide
___ voting rights for felons
___ gay marriage
__x_ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
__x_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
__x_ forced redistribution of wealth
_(what are you, fucking crazy?)__ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
___ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
__x_ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
__x_ cut US military spending by at least half
___ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
___ Complete open borders
___ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground"

I wasn't intending to knock your list, though pointing out the US-centricness is sensible. My point is that there are models that you could look at to see how it is really not difficult to implement many of the issues that many Americans see as controversial.
The Dutch have legalized cannabis too, by the way, I missed that one!

only two of those was important

Actually, thinking on it, I'd say it's much more important to talk to Muslim moderates and find ways to support them than it is to find common ground with the extremists.

Fox is the most obvious about it. Then there's ABC, which has been beyond hope ever since the CIA-founded Capital Cities took it over in 1985. By sheer coincidence, ABC was doing an investigation of drug trade-related corruption that heavily involved the CIA at that time. Also by sheer coincidence, the CIA dropped its suit against ABC right after Capital Cities took it over. We have so many funny coincidences over here.

The rest are corporate-controlled, too, though. Real information is only to be found through independent research (which means reading), not by turning on the TV.

_X_ decriminalization of drugs (cannibis )
_X_ assisted suicide (in certain cases )
___ voting rights for felons
_X_ gay marriage
_X_ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
_X_ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
___ forced redistribution of wealth
___ elimination of all reference to GOD in pblic
_X_ normal relations with North Korea and Iran (give and take)
_X_ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases (GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY > : (
_X_ cut US military spending by at least half (DO ITTTTTT)
_X_ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens O.O ALIENS?? WHERE??
___ Complete open borders
_X_ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
___ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground” Hmm.. maybe notthe murdering ones

I thought you could get BBC News 24? Worth a look if you don't know it already.

There's no more reasoning with Muslim extremists than with Christian extremists. I'm not sure you'll find many Muslim moderates because religious "moderates" are a bizarre phenomenon created by our consumer society. Since you can't very well do good business while killing your customers for heresy, Christians have kind of, well, collectively begun ignoring the parts of their books that are too violent to work with anymore.

By contrast, Islam mainly thrives in a culture wherein that kind of open violence can also still thrive. Thus, "extremists" (which actually just means "people who really obey their religions" tend to be more the norm than the exception, as I understand it at least.

Anyway, it's moot because we're not over there because of Muslim extremists; we're over there because of oil, period. That's what this was always about: oil and natural gas.

I added one to the end that you missed.



_X__ decriminalization of drugs
_X__ assisted suicide (Legal here in Oregon, and yes I voted for it.)
____ voting rights for felons
_X__ gay marriage
____ stop all support for Israel and Taiwan
____ complete unilateral nuclear disarmament
____ forced redistribution of wealth
____ elimination of all reference to GOD in public
_X__ normal relations with North Korea and Iran
____ complete withdrawal now from all overseas bases
____ cut US military spending by at least half
____ free health care, education, and drivers licenses for illegal aliens
____ Complete open borders
____ allow US citizen solders to be prosecuted in the world court
_X__ talk with muslim extremists to find “common ground” (can't hurt to talk)
_X__ Spending Billions more on education - all who want to go to college can

There is that, I'll grant. But I think I'm just naturally suspicious of talking heads now. I want in-print, detailed documentation, not a quick summary erupting from the mouth of some well-dressed head on the TV screen. In fact, I almost never watch television anymore for any reason. I've come to somewhat detest and resent it.

I thought your response was excellent! I appreciated the reminder that it was US-centric and I immediately made note of it at the top of the thread.

I just wanted to be straight and say that I wasn't making any judgements on the list. I'm sure everyone appeciates the information you stated regarding these issues in Eurpean nations (or non-issues as they may be).

Thanks again