Mac OS X Leopard -- Introducing Vista 2.0

I know I know I am going off on this thread.

Basically if you are are looking for a lowe end workstation for professional applications Apple is the way to go. So if your business is computer video, and you do not yet make enought money to invests 10 ka in a true pro system..go with apple.

But when it comes to the ability to play games on a desk top the i-macs give you about the same power and less upgradeability than you would expect from a 600-800 pc system. for playing games, Imacs are basically a joke.

First of all, it's a dual dual core not four dual cores. That won't happen for a few more months.

As for the Alienware machine. Perhaps it may run SL better now, but the problem there is when you're done with SL, you're still on Windows. (And before you refute this comment, read my previous posts in this thread).

Also, there was a nice live demo yesterday of some new coding features for Leopard that more than doubled the framerates in one of those other MMORPG's. I'm already getting better framerates on my MacBook Pro than my Opteron box (mostly because it still has an old FX 5950 Ultra in it that's getting a bit long in the tooth), so I can't wait to see how SL does on the new Mac Pros (and I intend to find out since they have a performance lab set up here to try out apps on the new hardware)...and new hardware or no, if LL takes advantage of the new stuff they demoed, it should be a huge help.

Yes. Because all Pros do is edit video.

With all that cpu power, thats about all they do better..

and windows runs just fine, thanks.

Doubling the frame rate from 4.2 to 8.4 is not much of an accomplishment.

Clearly, you have no clue what you're talking about reL on a Mac.

I get framerates much higher than than on my MacBook Pro already.

This certainly has been an interesting thread! The usual I build my own box for cheap (been there-done that) I can built a kick ass game machine (been there-done that) fer cheap and expensive for that matter. Supported Windows machines for 22 years and before on DOS machines. I love windows its support me in comfort for a long time. And I have owned both - my personal choice is usually a Mac.

Because in the final analysis, I get so sick of having to patch this swap that upgrade this mod the reg, replace dlls, yada-yada-yada. I'm on a Mac because I don't want to have to do all that. I get on, do my thing, get off. Time after time it just works, period. I edit video on an iMac, do animation, create all kinds of cool stuff, effortlessly. Jack in my external HD - boot from it if I want. I don't have to worry about my file system slowly corrupting files or mismanaging my drive space.

The problem with a lot of the commentary here is that we are a subset group of users - largely outside the realm of the average user. Go to a computer store listen to what people are buying and why. Half of Apple's current retail sales are going to people who are buying Macs for the first time. Why? Because they are tired of messing around with their computers. They want something that they can pull out of the box, connect up and do what they want to do. Securely, simply and as effortlessly as possible.

Here, we're hackerz, crackerz, designers, and content folk - we are special needs people!!! We love to mess and futz with stuff. Joe and Josephine Average don't. Why do you think we have automatic transmissions, garage door openers, microwave ovens, strike that, fast food, 1000 channels of contentless cable with a remote, wrinkle-free fabrics, shampoo and conditioner in one, cell phones that take pictures, play music and tell me where I am?

LOL!

PAX!

I have run SL on a Mac. I was using hyperbole.

Though maybe you hav enever run SL on a tricked out AMD..of course SL does not have ameaningful physics engine, so you miss out on the benefits of a deadicated physcis processor. Ant yet i am still capable of doing everything I want to outside of Sl. Including running photoshop, poser and now, maya.

well its all fine, but really the average joe who is not a gamer is busy buying 800 pcs, and not 1200 macs, or apple would have a much larger market share. I confess I am a gamer, and I look at this issue from that stand point. But there are a lot of gamers out there..and well, the vast majority of us don't use macs. As for me, I love amd, and choose it as superior, even over intel systems. But that has been my expereince.

I agree about AMD Jake in general.

I guess my point is that as far as commodity machines, you have stratas of purchasing, and while lots of people buy $800 or cheaper machines - many buy "more expensive" Macs because of the service and support, the seamless apps and the ease of use - cheap hits the skids on diminishing returns because at some point people decide that the time they invest in problem-solving is worth more than than simply getting a cheap PC. Remember, ease and convenience trump cheap more and more these days.

I'd go with 2 Gig of RAM. I went from 1 Gig to 2 and I see a BIG difference in SL. SL is such a RAM pig!

If you were to do this on your G5 or the new MacPro, that 2 Gigabytes will cost you between $400-$700. Bit pricey I think, considering it only cost me $80 for 1 Gig of RAM. And hell! If I'm really in need, I can stop at WalMart, KMart or any similar place & buy parts.

Yet I do agree that if someone is less technically inclined, Go with a Mac. Just keep that wallet nice N open!

Since I do more than just SL or video, such as gaming, I have to stick with the PC there. Gaming on a Mac is well.... not so good. I've seen forum posts from Mac users, using Boot Camp to run 3D Mark 05 and their scores weren't that impressive. Apple could possibly grab a nice market share by catering to this group. I'm talking the hard-core folks who'll drop $$$ on a Quad-SLI system, $80 Mice, $80 Keyboards, water cooling, etc.

Heh, forget dual video cards! My next build is going for 4

An office full of Macs I have yet to see. Mostly I've seen nothing but crappy Compaq's or cheap Dulls, I mean "Dells". Just because they're cheap to get, cheap to upgrade (if they ever do!).

And Ulrika- H.264 at DVD quality is nice but means nothing to the majority of home users.

There seems to be a tremendous amount of ignorance and personal bias in this thread. Instead of listening to those who either don't understand or have a personal agenda to promote (myself included), I recommend just checking out the links below. The Apple site has many little movies and interactive images for one to explore.

An overview of the new operating system can be found here:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html


An overview of the new Mac Pro can be found here:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

~Ulrika~

It seems that going to apple for an unbiased discussion of computing is like going to the pope for an unbiased discussion of the benfits of catholocism over judaism.

In the interest of fairness, I would suggest people also check out the www.alienware.com site and www.ibuypower.com or even pcclub.com for prices. Most of the sites I have found discussing this topic are basically people trying to convert to mac. Mac evangelism is huge. Keep in mind also that alienware is one of the more high priced compnies and uses the highest quality parts and has the best customer service around.

Also if you are comparing computers consider what you will be doing with the machine. If you are a gamer, in all honesty, look at the cost to buy as well as the cost to up grade. Consider also what you can buy for the same amount of money as a mac in terms of video memory, memory, hardrive space and other options.

most importantly consider the availability and cost of games. Walk into a best buy and compare the pc selection vs. the mac selection.

If you are doing things besides gaming, the video issue is less of an issue and the macs substandard performance in this area is not critical. Look at the applications that you will use and and see which work best for you. talk to people who use both, and find out what they say about virus issues and ease of use. I have never had a virus problem on my windows pc that was not caught by anti-virus software, and I find windows very easy to use. I like building computers, so I know a lot about hardware and nut much at all about software..i'm a plug and play guy.

also look at peripherals..printers, scanners, etc.

Ultimately its going to be your 500-2500 bucks down the tube. So do a bit of research and decide for yourself.

Remember that the Mac Pro is now PC hardware. It can be upgraded with the exact same video cards, processors, and memory that a PC can. This upgradability myth has been busted.

The Mac Pro can run Windows now either natively (Boot Camp) or in a virtual machine (Parallels), as well as running MacOS X. Thus the selection of games available to a Mac Pro owners is now the sum of games in the PC section and Mac section. The software availability grouse has been retired.

Antivirus software, what's that?

For those who do like software, don't forget that MacOS X is built on BSD Unix. There's a whole layer of complexity and power just beneath the skin of the OS for those who wish to tap it. Additionally, thanks to Fink all GNU applications are available for MacOS and run perfectly (as opposed to the kludgy Cygwin).

Visit your local Apple store or check out store.apple.com for a giant list of accessories.

The old Mac myths no longer apply.

~Ulrika~

So far, talking with you about the bad points about Apple is like talking with a religious fundamentalist about the bad points about religion. It's pointless. I have a friend that is religious about Apple, and every time he wants to try to promote Apple, he'll point to the Apple website as it it's not biased. It's frustrating.

Here's a few questions for you, both questions being honestly the same question but worded differently--it will be interesting to see how you spin the answer:

Why does Apple refuse to make an affordable machine that can be upgraded?

Why are the only machines that Apple puts out that are upgradable ones that are over $2000?

Why are the only machines that Apple puts out that are affordable ones that can't be upgraded?

Why does Apple make their target market either those that are clueless about computers (non-techies who would buy something like an Imac or a mini) or professionals that have tons of money, with nobody inbetween?

And here's a question for you that is not the same:

Do you believe Apple wants to get more popular and get more of a percentage of the computer marketshare, or do you believe that they are happy with the tiny percentage they have now and have had for years?

Well yes, but you still have to pay for the upgrade so add about 400 bucks ontot he mac for the dual cards, we are now at $2800 bucks, add another $300 bucks for the physics card, assuming they make os/x games that are supported by it, and we are at $3100 bucks, now lets add a second meg of memory, thats $300 bucks on an apple, we are at $3400.

(Now lest say you are truly insane..can you even overclock a mac? I don't know.)

Now you have just paid a thousand dollars more for a system that you are going to run windows on so you can play the games that come out for the windows system. Yeah I know there might be titles released for OS/X only, but I have yet to see them, or miss them.

No wonder apple loves its customer base, they are willing to toss money away, so maybe I have to get a $40 anti-virus program? 960 bucks is a huge thing. And really you could get close to the same performance for even less than what I am tossing at the amd rig.

And when it comes to the Imac, well upgrades are out the window.

I have no idea of the relative value of running linux..and well I am sure most pc customers do not.

Thus myths may be busted but the truth hurts.

without touching the rest of your thread and the numerous inaccuarte assumptions and stale facts which no longer apply, I can say there are offices full of Macs around. I happen to work in one of them we have over 400 macs in our office and maybe 100 pc's. we have 8 guys for windows support (for 100 pc's) and two and a half for mac support (for 400 macs).

it was getting to the point where it was looking like we might want to hire another mac support guy, but with a lot of the Leopard Server stuff coming next spring, i think we can make do with what we have for a while longer.

LOL! Just so you know, you have posted two messages in this thread referring to a gig as a meg. First it was the 300 meg hard drive, and now it's "a second meg of memory". You may want to edit those posts.

Huh? Your posts don't even make sense and I'm not just talking about the technical and spelling errors.

The upgrades aren't free on Apple hardware any more than they are on Dell or HP hardware. The point is that the Power Mac sells for $1000 less than a Dell with comparable features. The Power Mac can be upgraded exactly like a PC at any time. It can run Windows or MacOS. What is so hard about that to understand?

~Ulrika~

Watch how you talk to me, Fmeh. I can be viscous when provoked and you're definitely walking the line.

I would say that it has something to do with their business model but I think you already know that.

How long have you been beating your wife?

Sorry, I don't do loaded questions.

~Ulrika~

Well, you're really stubborn (and I'm stubborn as well, it takes one to know one)--you've responded to many people's posts that try to make good points by sidestepping the issues by going into "praise Apple" mode. You'll never catch me going into a "praise Microsoft" mode. I LOVE Apple's OSX, and I can't say enough good things about it. If you would have been willing to read my post that was a full page of text, you would have understood that.

I'm sorry for the frustration that is obviously showing in my messages about Apple's business practices. I would love to see Apple take a big chunk out of the computer market because I believe whole-heartedly in their product, but I also believe their product, in reality, is their OS, and not their hardware--I believe their hardware market it artificially propped up on stilts.

And I think their business model is going after the demographics of people that are either anti-technical (on the brink of being computer illiterate) or rich tech-heads. They don't seem to want to support monetarily poor tech-heads.

That wasn't very nice--I know it was said in fun, but it still wasn't very nice. Besides, I'm gay, and I don't have a wife.

I wasn't trying to make it a loaded question.

Apple has never had a good share of the computer market, which is sad--I wish they did have a better share of the market, especially after releasing such an awesome OS, but I believe that their current business model is not going to change their standing very much as far as their role in the personal computer market.

Let me try to ask this as plainly as I can: What do you think Apple's goal is when it comes to personal computing?

I'm trying to be as non-partisan about this as I know how, and I'm sure you are too.

*slaps forehead* Her statement was the canonical example of a loaded question, stated as a response to your loaded question.

*sigh* Damn trolls messing up a perfectly enjoyable thread.

yeah yeah yeah..and you still knew what I meant lol

What, you get beat down in the cold hard facts, and now you have to resort to assaults on spelling? LOL. Arguing macs with you is a bit like arguing atheism with Kevin. We found Ulrika's religion.

Yes, power mac is cheaper than dell. I would buy a dell, and I wouldn't recommend anyone else buy one either. I have an HP laptop, which replaced my pitiable powerbook, and I still saved money. I would not tell anyone else to buy an HP lap top either. There are better deals on the market.

The point of my post, for you apple users out there, who might not have any concept of value for your dollar, is that you can get a home based machine, that does everything most users need it to do, and runs games better, for far less than you can get a power Mac. By the time you have upgraded the powermac to include the upgrades, you have spent $3400, to get features I can get on an AMD for $2400.

Its a fasle economy, saying you can buy a machine for $2400, and upgrade it. If you go with my AMD $2400 gets you a solid machine, with all the hot shit upgrades. Unless you are doing something very specialized and professional, most users do not need to crank out $2400 bucks on a power mac. And if you are gaming, shelling out $2400 bucks on a powermac is worse, because it is a step down from even an average destop machins in the graphics department.

Oh this is rich, i wish I had gone to the Dell website earlier.

It seems apple does a bit of false advertising. They seem to compare the low end mac pro with price on the top of the line dell precision.

The basic model price on a dell precision is $1728. Using the builder on the dell website, I was able to configure a system with almost identical features to the power mac for $2,238.00.

The difference is that the apple has a 256 video card and the dell a 128, however one could find a superior 256 card for less than the price difference, or even add another 128.

The other difference is that the processors on the dell system run at 3.O ghtz and the apple's are 2.66 ghtz, to get the 3,0 ghtz in an apple is an 800.00 upgrade.

Oh, and the dell system comes with a monitor.

Whose making myths now?