Iraq Body Count at 25,000

1st up, I don't have a 'president'.
Humiliation is the torture the inmates of Abu graib put up with at the hands of the US forces. I would rather see 1000 humiliated yet able to return to their homes, and later seek rightful justice, than one more person murdered.

Oh, you might want to also open YOUR eyes and read my posts correctly before running to the hills screaming 'OMG right wing retard'. If you read correctly I stated I hoped the coalition would deal with ALL tryants and theocracies as we have dealt with Iraq.

Finally, if you think what George Bush is doing comes close to the practices of the Saddam regime I'm afraid it is you who should 'open your freakin eyes' and go do some research,w atch some videos, look at some pictures. Also, please prvide me the links so I can see where coalition troops slaughtered women and children. Doubtless women and children (wow, some men too) have died and been called 'Collateral damage' (and isn't that a reprehensible term) but you wont find much evidence of coalition troops beheading truck drivers in the street. You wont find much evidence of them slitting the throats of interpreters and allowing them to choke on their own blood.

I see both sides of this conflict. Perhaps you should learn to do the same.

So then in your world, I'm left with "at least Bush isn't as bad as Saddam or Hitler".
Lovely legacy he's going to leave.

My hat off to the KGB, Stasi, Mukhabarat and the rest. They sure have done a much better job on our citizens than the CIA or even the Mossad ever did on theirs.

Assuming a constant death toll from the start of the war until now and an extrapolated total death count of 100,000 people, the average would be approximately 100 deaths per day.

The figure of 300 per day was based on a spike right before I made the post, which can be seen on the included graph. This graph was generated using data from the Iraq Body Count website and comes with all the caveats and limitations associated with collecting data based on verifiable news reports.

~Ulrika~

In my world? Sorry Kendra, I'm afraid you're stuck in this cess pit too. May I be so bold as to ask you something? Can you give me a better alternative right now?. Do you think it'd be different under Kerry for example? If so, you clearly labour under the misaprehension that power lies with the figurehead.

The war has started, the coalition are there. We cannot undo what has been done. Right now it has to be followed to its (il)logical conclusion. Then maybe, after the autopsy, we can learn from this hellish situation. Although I wouldn't hold my breath, mankind has proven it's ineffectiveness at learning anything from war apart from how to kill more people next time.

All I ask from you is that you do a little research into who exactly is targetting and slaughtering civilians. Do I believe in this war because of WMD's? Nope. Because I thought Saddam was a threat to the world? Hell no. Because I'm still naive or hopeful enough to think this might be a step towards crushing tyranny? Towards ridding the planet of as many religous, throat cutting, zealots as possible? Yes.

Let us at least agree to hope for the best. and let us also hope other countries realise what will come to them if they carry on with their ways of torture and murder. Especially that disgusting hotbed of terrorism and horror known as Saudi Arabia.

This is an example of one of the weakest forms of rhetoric. It's sarcasm combined with hyperbole. Within the hyperbole is the fallacious implication that several disconnected groups have influenced U.S. citizens.

Weak. Hyperbolic. False. High-school debate tactics typical of neoconservative punditry.

~Ulrika~

What if those religious, throat-cutting zealots are U.S. citizens? (Holds up a mirror to Hayden.)

~Ulrika~

I do think we'd better with kerry. Mostly because Kerry would have been an actual President and NOT the figurehead that Bush is. The fact that Bush is a sniveling self-serving small minded-thug is precisely why the miliary industrial complex can yank his strings like a dime store marionette. The fact that Bush's inaction as a President has caused me to be swept into his (and your's) cesspool neither escapes nor makes me feel anything but rage against the traitorous thugs that have stolen my country.



What coalition? Surely you jest.



Which is what exactly? Does the Bush administration even have a plan other than enforced chaos for the purpose of broad-based theft of a once sovereign nation's resources?




If we didn't learn from Vietnam. We ain't gonna start learn'n' now. I for one don't believe the murderer should perform the autopsy.



That's the only statement of your's that makes any sense.




How disgustingly presumptious of you. I've done my research, and drawn my conclusions from facts.



Let's start at home first then. We have our own murderous religious zealots to deal with.




We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
Edward R. Murrow

I'm not American. I have no loyalty to Americaespecially.When you can provide me with the proof Americans are slitting peoples throats in the street whilst chanting '(insert diety of choice here) is great' then please do so. At which point I will roundly condemn them also. You are holding up a mirror to no one Ulrika because I view this conflict from both sides and consider any benefits, no matter how small. So spare me the 'college intellectual' self satisying nonsense and discuss my points if you have anything valid to add.

I will spare you nothing. I will bring the full brunt of my massive education to bear on your ... Ooh! My Hot Pockets are done.

~Ulrika~

Yeah, Kerry has been against the war since day one huh? Whilst Kerry might have been the lesser of two risks he wouldn't have improved things one iota. Again, if you think the power lies with any president these days you are sadly mistaken. Lobbyists, corporations, vested interests. That's where the power is.



No, I think this list is still fairly current. Coalition forces




Again you seem to believe I am a Bush supporter. And as for theft, I believe the control of the oil will fall to the OPEC nations. If you look at the forecasts, once the war is finally over and there is a stable Sovereign Iraq the country (and its populace) will most likely end up with a far improved income.



Me neither.




Ah yes, it must of course be my fault that disagreeing with you makes me nonsensical. How wonderfully opinionated of you.





And where is this proof that teh coalition forces deliberately target women and children. I mean specifically aiming to inflict as much damage as they can on innocent civilians. Because I can supply you plenty of links to the Iraqi people being deliberately targeted and slaughtered by the 'Freedom fighters'




Take care of our own back yard before worrying about someone elses. In some ways I agree. But clearly your religious zealots aren't a big enough bogey man to scare the voters. Also, they consistantly fail to garner public support for beheading innocent people. I know which I would rather see wiped out first.





The giving up of freedoms by US citizens is a whole other thread I believe. Probably an interesting one though.

Guess you have nothing valid to add then. What filling?

I imagine when the Pentagon allows the release of the 87 additional Abu Ghraib photos of independant contractors and MI brass raping young boys with light sticks as well as 4 videos of even more barbaric treatment we might be able to discuss this finer point of your's with more specifics.

The fact that you have no loyalty to America gives you much in common with the Bush administration. Thank you for clearing that up. I, personally, am very loyal to America and her once noble ideals. A position from which I take my stance.

The only thing I'll agree with there is that Kerry's backers belived in service as a noblesse oblige (repulsive notion, but preferrable to PNAC rape and pillage). I'm not a big fan of compassionate rule by an elite class that "knows" better than the masses, but an expanded middle-class (always the democratic position) is far far better than creating a society of 1% haves and 99% have nots. At least Kerry's elite backers recognize an expanded middle-class begets a better and stronger economy.

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pretty pathetic list all things considered.

Kerry's position on the war was not mine, but it was substantially different than Bush's.
In all honesty the only candidate on the field that I truly supported was Kucinich, but Kerry wouldn't have made me ashamed to be an American.



If it quacks like a duck...



Duh. Why do you think the Bush administration is metaphorically doing for Saudi Arabia what Monica did for Clinton. Despite the brutal weekly beheadings I might add.




According to Cheney that's 20 years away at least. Current forecasts are less inclined to see a stable soverign Iraq, and more inclined to see Iraq divide in with the Kurds in control of the oil reserves, and the Shiites becoming Iran's chew toy. No doubt the Sunni and the Baathists will consume each other in a Bush inspired bloodfest.



ain't it though?



Because you fail to see the true PNAC agenda at work here. The goal isn't to simply get oil, or spread freedom, or bring Saddam to justice --or playing pinochle with Aunt Tillie or whatever propogandist bullshit the Bush administration trots out for the world stage.
The goal is to engage in perpetual war and create Iraq as a chaotic pot o' gold, where Halliburton, KB&R, Bechtel etc can shoot at leprechauns like fish in a barrel. It's a looting spree over there.



always back to that beheading thing. They use machete --we use 70mm rounds of depleted uranium --trust me we behead people to -- just not as cleanly.




Good way to dodge the question anyways eh?

great stuff Ulrika. the anthrax terrorists wasn't found was he? pretty sure bet he was working for the us govt/military making the anthrax and ONLY sent it to democrats, see if you are a right wing terrorist you are fine! Pat Robertson advocates murder and he is a favorite of the US govt. so US terrorists as long as they are right wing (remember all the white power terrorists? that story vanished didn't it) will not be sought after, left wing ones will be (by logic) and any non-us citizen will be used as the govt see's fit, Osama? nah, he can stay out there joe blow iraqi pissed off at his family being murdered? he will be slaughtered for the demon god that the us govt appears to worship. man, what a mess...

Did you hear that class? Comrade Baphomet has been a bad boy, a very ignorant bad boy!

He must be go back home and watch Fahrenheit 911 fifty more times and promise to tune Bill Maher every night before he is allowed to return to class.

For extra credit and to improve his rhethoric skills he is to memorize and recite to us, upon his return, the following excerpt from a speech by one of our beloved heroes, Secretary General, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah.

"How can death become joyous? How can death become happiness? When Al-Hussein asked his nephew Al-Qassem, when he had not yet reached puberty: "How do you like the taste of death, son?" He answered that it was sweeter than honey. How can the foul taste of death become sweeter than honey? Only through conviction, ideology, and faith, through belief, and devotion. We do not want to live merely in order to eat, drink, and enjoy life's pleasures, and leave our homeland to Israel so it will slaughter it upon the altar of its aspirations, desires, hate, and historic vendettas. Therefore, we are not interested in our own personal security. On the contrary, each of us lives his days and nights hoping more than anything to be killed for the sake of Allah. The most honorable death is to be killed, as the Leader Imam Al-Khamenei said when 'Abbas [Musawi] was martyred. He said: "Congratulations to 'Abbas, congratulations to 'Abbas." The most honorable death is death by killing, and the most honorable killing and the most glorious martyrdom is when a man is killed for the sake of Allah, by the enemies of Allah, the murderers of the prophets."

AR'ed and on my ignore list.

~Ulrika~

Why does that deserve an Abuse Report?

That fellow has been posting content which is intentionally contrary and written with the intent of inciting argumentative opinions. It's good old fashion trolling of the extreme sarcastic rhetorical flavor, which is why it received an AR. I also am not a fan of Prokofy-esque extreme rhetoric, which is why it is currently the only name on my ignore list.



~Ulrika~

Entymology of Baphomet: A slanderous distortion of Mahomet, which is the Latinized "Muhammad", prophet of Islam. Created by religious propagandists associated with the Knights-Templar, the name Baphomet evoked idolatry worship and violent, ritualistic sexual practises meant to discredit the Muslim faith. Worship of Baphomet was later used to discredit the Templars themselves.

Origins of Sextus: an early Christian who is said to have authored many of the platitudes, parables, and discourses attributed to Jesus in the New Testament and the apocryphal "Sayings Gospels". Some of these are collected in a work called the "Sentences of Sextus", part of the Nag Hammadi collection. Sextus has been called the "historical Jesus" by critics of Christianity.

No, you haven't been bad, Sextus Baphomet. Just busy.

And that would change the situation in iraq how?




Not as pathetic as you pretty much stating there was no coalition.



I'm sorry you are ashamed to be American. Sometimes my government makes me ashamed of them, Iv'e yet to be ashamed of being English though.




Find me part of my text that condones the actions and excuses of the Bush admisnistration. I find their easons for this war disgraceful, the spin pathetic, and the sheer ignorance of world affairs amazing. I'm suprised by you Kendra. I had you pegged as an intelligent person. Yet comments like that last one paint you as ignorant and biased. So sad.




Because of greed. Again, I was saying how I 'hoped' we would take the war to tyrants and theocracies. Please Kendra, learn to read posts properly without desperately seeking things to get all pompous about. You might find that not everyones views are the polar opposite of yours.




Amazing, the Bush administration (By your reckoning) is incompetent andd greedy, yet you quote Chaney as a reliable forecaster. Cool.




Try not to revel in your ignorance dear.




I fail to see nothing Kendra. Do I really have to change font size and colour so you can get the message. I do not support Bush and his greedy cronies. But facts are facts, administrations change, and who knows what will happen when you guys have a new president.




Cleanly? Please, go watch a beheading. Tell me how sharp the knife is and how clean the kill. All death in a war is a pointless waste as far as I'm concerned. But again you equate the actions of your troops with the actions of the militants which only goes to show you argue without knowing the facts. Not many cases of US soldiers decapitating some Iraqi national guard in the street. even the Jihadist propaganda machine doesn't goes as far in correlation as you. Clean you say, if you call choking on your own blood whilst a man tries to saw through your spine with a knife (Yes, a knife is what they normally use Kendra. this isn't Hollywood. No clean decaps) is clean then I pity the person you consider to have had an unclean death.





Actually I just look forward to a thread like that. Especially as whatever happens in your country will undoubtedly have an effect in mine before long.

I am off. I hereby quit defending the honor of the United States of America and Israel in these forums, and return to the liberal and more popular side of me: Being a Pagan, a Pot Smoker, and having cyber with women who are not my wife.

I thank all the American soldiers who have died ensuring I have the right to do all of the above and that I do not have to live under a Fascist State as Bin Laden and his followers East and West, would like to impose upon us.