Iraq Body Count at 25,000

Ask a vietnam war protester how righteous risking forum banning is. How sedate our protesting has become.

I'm affected in the normal way, I think the terrorists are evil. I don't think that it's the time to create a "London is hurting" website to spread healing auras...

Whatever boots you wear, my point is some people should get back to wearing them. Some people are taking entirely too much out of the death of some innocent people, and they didn't do anything bad to deserve that exploitation in their death. They deserve respect and silence after their death, so their families can bury their dead. If I die in some terrorist attack and some americans quarrel over how distraught they are over the death of {we don't know them} in the UK, I will turn in my grave

Problem is next time some poor person dies somewhere in the world, you'll be there with your silk hankerchief shouting into the street "nooo, not {don't know them}!". It's all a bit too much for me and a lot of UK people, too plastic, too fake. That's why people in the UK are already insulting that "London is hurting" site, it's pure tosh. If you must "mourn", do it in your house on your own.

I wish those guys were alive right now to see this, cause if they were they'd be quite angry with you guys. Most Brits don't like the whole american "i-must-see-my-shrink" approach to everything. We don't like a lot of fuss, and big communal mourning. We don't make a meal out of death. And I think they'd be mad you're making a meal out of their death.

maybe we should look at the reality of conflict in/with Iraq

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200507110807.asp

You know, I was willing to concede you had a point about how American sincerity is perceived abroad, until I saw this bigoted trash.

I'd write more, but I've got to get up early tomorrow, put on my boots and my hat, and ride up to the high pasture and start taking in the hay for the winter. Northern Rockies, see; I guess us Americans just can't get away from our "roots".

But I'll be thinking about you today, as I rope down the two-year-old longhorns in the high pasture and set a hot brand to their flesh. Well, actually, I'll probably think more about Han Chinese history, the problem of gamma bursters in the night sky, and the latest Michael Crichton novel I just finished. (It was awful.) Just the simple, silly things us American cowboys think about.

A few people have said they think I mean americans are cowboys. Actually I meant, whatever is life to americans, they should get on and do it. I don't pretend to know what life is like for most americans, and I don't think you are cowboys. Honestly I don't care. I have MY life to lead. How people got that I thought americans were cowboys, I'm not sure.

(1) I am a cowboy. I was born into a ranching family in the American southwest. Although I make the bulk of my living in other ways now, I own land in the northern Rockies, and I run cattle on it.

(2) I lived in the UK for three summers, in an apartment near the Aldgate underground station in London. Brits I know were either fascinated by the American cowboy thing, or used it as a convenient put-down. Interestingly, I found that being what I am was a good response to both POV's.

(3) Cowboys work hard, are very conscious of their surroundings, read huge amounts of literature and non-fiction, and love to write poetry. (The National Cowboy Poetry Festival in Elko, Nevada, is world-famous.) I'm glad to know you were complementing Americans and not putting them down. Thank you.

I have no particular thoughts on that myself, but for my part I don't have anything against cowboys... Nope, doesn't bother me at all. I'm just totally fine with that. No thoughts.

Then I'll take your lack of thought as an expression of friendship, because, being a typical American cowboy, I am determined to save you from yourself, along with the rest of world.

Right... And I'll act just like a Brit. I'll hear what you say, and say nothing till I work out where you're coming from...

HEY

I'm a Brit and I always don't listen, and reply, then think ah fuck I shoulda listened...

happens to the best of us

The cowboy image is an important part of American Culture - It's not just pop stars and junk food.

Did anyone bother to read the article I posted above, or is that why you're all so quiet?

Those people lives were worthless, don't you know? They never generated headlines, self-righteousness, or a reason to have 100,000 strong pot smoking parties. LOL dude, lets party!

Yes and it works, Katrina showed us we are UNABLE to defend people at home while fighting abroad.

It's a good thing we are destroying terrorists.

Oh and those who get mad at us for our way of doing it... don't worry, we'll eventually fight them too... don't worry we'll get them all.

This I'd say is the real heart of this debate, chronologic nearsightedness. Few know (or believe) their history, so points like this don't even enter the debate.

Terrorists? Kill them, liberate the people! Yea that will work!

People don't look at the patterns that come again and again because they see it all through the small vision the media plays.

Was Saddam bad and deserve a fate worse than death (the hours of court, poor guy) why yes he does. But is that the reason we went in? Did we really go in to finish off the job his father didn't?

Maybe.

So... we got Saddam.. and we are still there why? Ah there's the rub, if we got him why are we still there? To get rid of the terrorists?

If terrorist = person against the USA... well we'd sooner get rid of mosquitos.

Someone please tell me where all the terrorists are and how we will get rid of them?

this is a good place to start understanding the WarS in Iraq

More accurately, the National Review is a place to get an understanding of a very biased right wing view of war, much like Fox News.

I had a fairly liberal outlook on war and the middle east. But perhaps some people here should see what the insurgents (And remember, these guys aren't only about kicking the coalition 'infidels' out of Iraq. If you think that is their only goal you are naive) do to people they capture. Abu garib, shocking treatment of the enemy. Who could deny it? But hunt around the web a little. Go watch the beatings, arm breakings, amputations of limbs and tongues, carried out under Saddams regime. Go watch a video of some poor Tibetan dishwasher being beheaded. Then you will know what we are really fighting here.

Maybe it is about the oil, I don't know. but I only pray our leaders show the same determination in dealing with dictators and theocracies around the globe.

So, in the article that I linked to above, what exactly is right wing biased?

We're doin' a heckuva job, Brownie.

Don't you get it Champie? It says "National Review", therefore it must be wrong. Just like moveon.org must be right. Geez...

Just for a small example of the kind of right wing disinformation disseminated by the National Review, and your link in particular, this one paragraph is a great example:

"In any case, we called off our forces before the destruction of the Republican Guard. We also refused to go to Baghdad; we let rebellious Shiites and Kurds be tragically butchered; and we failed to enforce all the surrender agreements. Apparently the U.S. wished to bow to the U.N. mandates only to expel Saddam from Kuwait, or was worried about our Sunni partners who wanted a lid on Kurdish tribalism and Shiite fervor inside Iraq."

Were you familiar with US law, the US Constitution, treaties, the UN Charter, and the Security Council resolutions regarding that first UN/Iraq conflict, you would see that the entire paragraph is a complete distortion of facts. The UN only mandated expelling Iraq from Kuwait. The US had not bowed to the UN. The US is bound by law to respect the UN Security Council and it's resolutions. Respecting UN resolutions and treaty agreements is simply obeying the law.

The article you linked to is full of distortion and propaganda, but if you don't bother to actually check the facts, and you don't understand what propaganda is, you might not know it, because the whole point of most everything in the National Review is not to inform but to misinform.