Protest Warrior HQ

"Even I" never said it was "direct". But it's analogous. Point is, the United States itself is an exercise in "artificial" nation-building, unlike the more-organic evolution of cultures such as Britain's, France's, Japan's, or even Germany's. One of the very first, certainly the most successful, if the measurement is in terms of power and influence.

And that has been the pattern of American reaction to world affairs ever since. In addition to itself, the U.S. has attempted nation-building in every American state along it's growing frontier, among Native American tribes, among two dozen nations in Latin America, in the Philippines, Hawaii, Guam, and over thirty other island archipelagos in the Pacific, in China and Japan, in Western Europe after the Second World War, in Israel, in South Korea, in South Vietnam, in Angola and Afghanistan, and in Iraq.

Sometimes it's worked fairly well, sometimes it's been disasterous. It's usually worked better when American leadership has been minimally competent, had a plan, and encountered a situation that was relatively similar. Which is why I have severe doubts about the outcomes in Iraq.

Again, though, now that the Bush administration has near-criminally muddled us into temporary "ownership" of Iraq, am I willing to leave and allow the bloodbath of a religious and ethnic civil war? No, I believe that the United States should take responsibility for its mistakes.

*sigh. The analogy is fairly obvious. You need to look beyond simple leadership identification issues to the underlying dynamics of American motives and ideologies. You continually use the word "directly" - your choice, not mine.

I'm saying the pattern exists. Recognize it for what it is, and think about the implications for the present situation. If you can't do that, then we'll have to disagree.

*sigh. The analogy is fairly obvious. You need to look beyond simple leadership identification issues to the underlying dynamics of American motives and ideologies. You continually use the word "directly" - your choice, not mine. And your characterization of the American Revolution and the Constitutional period, while comforting for modern Americans, isn't what happened.

I'm saying the pattern exists. Recognize it for what it is, and think about the implications for the present situation. If you can't do that, then we'll have to disagree.

*produces his birth certificate indicating he wasn't born until 1975...
As much as I would love to take credit for that awesome piece of work...haha

-Kiamat Dusk

Wait a second. You completely gloss over the Articles of Confederation and my characterization is misleading?

You were calling people Traitors - accusing them of a criminal act, the Highest recognized crime in this country. There is no debate on the meaning of the word. Many Right wind pundits are throwing it about also. It is extemely offensive thing and not at all comparitive as you suggest.



Traitor is easily defined - I dont think anyone was confused by your use of the word. It was just a simple case that you and the right wing pundits are wrong when you/they use it.



There is a difference between wishing troops sucess in operations while there are hostilities and rooting for victory per se. IF someone beleives that a war is unjust they can still be a patriot even if they hope that the war is settled in some manner before a victory occurs.

Certainly though rooting for an American defeat would not be patriotic.

However, it is not contradictory to wish for a ceasation of hostilties before a clear victory is reached.



This is absolutely not defensible. At no time should all protest to any war be silenced. There always has to be free speech and people need to be allowed to voice their opinions. This prinicple is more important than winning the war in Iraq.

You Can Not have a Military engaged in conflict allowed to proceed unquestioned by the American people. We have CIVILIAN control of the military in the United states. Those civilians are voted in by the people. Some of whom do not agree with the reasons for this war, Some of those do not agree continuing the war.

Again I dont think anyone should be hoping the US is defeated. But there is nothing wrong with someone holding the opinion that the war should end.

I personally have the biggest problem with instead of debating the war protesters - the pro War crowd prefers to Attack the war protesters

IF the reasons for war are so just - then please argue on principle.

The Anti War Folk should do the same. Calling Bush and the soldiers in Iraq "murderers" is not right either.

The Pro war crowd should say why the war is Just

The Anti war crowd should say why the war is Un Just.

This is a rather negatively slanted veiw on the American Revolution.

I will concede the "official" story of how glorious the revolution was is Also heavily slanted in the opposite direction.

But Im fairly confident that the truth lies in between these two extremes. And in no way as simple as the statement Ive highlighted in bold above.

Of course a debate on the American revolution wouldnt belong on this thread.

It galls me how Liberals in this country are content to sit fat, dumb, and happy and play armchair quarterback. Here's what I'd like to see:

1. An ACLU lead march on Beijing demanding democratic reform.
2. A NOW march on Tehran or Rihyadh demanding equality for women.
3. American Socialists and Communists live in North Korea for a year.

I'd like to see the Liberals turn their rhetoric into action, really stand up for what they believe in. But this won't happen. The fact is, these people join these causes because they think it makes them look cool and enlightened and, frankly, because they've got nothing better to do but bitch and whine.

-Kiamat Dusk
Peace through Victory

I think you just bumped this because you hadn't called people who disagree with you shitty names in a while and you knew that in doing so, you would draw us out and this pointless, nasty thread would go for another 70 posts before it died again.

-Lianne Marten
Had scrambled eggs for breakfast

September 24th, 2005

How many you guys get? 400?

Oh, BTW --Why aren't you in Iraq --ya know fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here.

We have a very large military, Kendra. My focus is on other hotspots. However, it is not out of the realm of possibility that I could find myself in Iraq and have volunteered to do so.

Now, can I book you a trip to North Korea?

-Kiamat Dusk
PS: What does that link have anything to do with this discussion besides proving the validity of my argument?

And, yet, here you are doing your part to keep it alive. Actually, I use this thread to bring up issues that are bugging me at the moment rather than starting new threads for each one. I almost put my peeing the shower poll in here, but didn't think it really fit.


-Kiamat Dusk
Draft the Homeless

Ahhh, like VP Cheney, you have other priorities. How convenient.


as to your other question, why would I go to North Korea? I don't support North Korea. But if you can arrange sending me to Sweden or Canada I might be up for that. I think I'll stay in my beloved homeland, however, and fight the good fight to get the fascists out of MY Whitehouse.

Why not? Your President is shitting all over the Constitution.

I didn't lead a march in Tehran, but I did spend the last 12 years of my life (with my liberal colleagues) in some of the most oppressive countries in the world. I didn't have a gun. I didn't have a war.

Nonetheless, we affected change every single day. Do you even know the issues facing women in oppressive regimes?

The woman for whom I worked for 12 years recently died. She began this work decades ago as she was working with her husband in Bangladesh. They were in the process of erradicating Smallpox.

While she was there she noticed that women and children were dying because only men had been trained to provide vaccinations. It was unlawful for those men to touch the women.

Hearing this she oganized teams of women volunteers to go to Bangladesh and provide vaccinations. While she was working with the women they would ask her, "Sister, can you tell us how not to have babies?"

"Sister, can you help us with our bleeding?" Why bleeding? Because during delivery the incision was made bu the local butcher with his knife. This often cut into the bladders of the women leaving them with tubes running from their bodies and buckets to collect urine. They lived like this for the rest of their days.

You are far too arrogant for your years when you falsely claim that we liberals do nothing. Walk in my shoes if you dare. Walk into the worst places in the world. Stare into the eyes of those who have little hope. Organize the women of a country to stand up for their rights and against their men. When you have seen 100 women rise up and take to the streets to stop the senseless beating and torture of an elderly widow, you can come back and make those statements.

Do you know what it is ike to go into a muslim culture and work to change the culture of female circumcision? Do you even know the scenrio? Do you know the challenges? From the men? From the women? Do you know?

Liberals stand up for what they believe in every day. I know because I am one of them.

I just don't need a gun or a war wages under false pretenses to do it. I don't need to wage a war under false pretenses to help those in need and feel like a man in the process.

Ummmm....Neehai? Did you even read my post? Anyway...how much would those women be served if all the members of NOW went into those countries and demanded their rights to equality and sex education? That's what I'm getting at. Let's see a million soccer mom march in the Middle East. Let's see these women go out and support their sisters abroad and so on and so forth.

-Kiamat Dusk

I'm a military member-I follow orders. Or have you forgotten your own statements already, Kendra? I can't write myself orders to Iraq or I'd be there already. And, if you'd open *your* eyes, you'd see there's a lot going on outside of Iraq.

-Kiamat Dusk

Were you ordered to vote for Bush?

And yes --I see that the NYC transit system in on Orange plus alert (or whatever they call it now) because --uhm--we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here.

My eyes are wide open --far wider and more open then they have ever been. Certainly open enough to see that this country is on the fast-track to a fascist dictatorship.

Oh, I read upost. The problem is that you can only paint people with one brush. It is the only way your arguments make sense in your world. Very much that "with us or against us" mentality.

Members of NOW do go into these countries. As a matter of fact, I have worked with them, side by side for years. However, you show your ignorance of the development community when you trivialize the work as demanding rights.

Soccer moms? I've worked with them as well.

I could have spent the last 12 years as a protest warrior, but I had better things to do with my time.