Protest Warrior HQ

I'd like to start this thread as a place for Conservatives and non-Conservative (I affectionately refer to them as "traitors" to exchange ideas. I'll try to drop in new talking points on a regular basis depending on how long it takes on average to exhaust an issue.

In the spirit of <edit> speech, I invite others to drop in new topics for discussion here as well.

First up: Has The War on Terrorism Made the US Safer?
I say it has and I present the following as evidence:
1) Since 9/11 there have been no *major* attacks on US soil or citizens OUTSIDE of a warzone. (there have been minor attacks: US Embassy in Qatar-no US casualties. Murders of US citizens in Egypt)

2) In contrast, during the Clinton administration we saw
-The first WTO attack
-The USS Cole attack
-The Khobar Towers attack
-2 US Embassy attacks

There have been no convictions relating to terrorism in the United States under the Bush administration.

The attackers of the WTC under Clinton were captured and are in prison.

You also list events over an 8 year term. I will have to see how the next four years turn out before an accurate comparison can be made between the teo administrations.

Can I join your club? I love to protest and I am definitely a warrior. Not the enlist and go to war kind of warrior, but the other kind.

Ah.. the play with dolls, wave signs and stir the shit kind? The take credit when things go right but unwilling to pay the price for things kind?

Why don't you go troll elsewhere?

Hmmmm

· On 15 January, terrorists in Bayt Sahur, West Bank, attacked a vehicle carrying two persons, killing one and wounding the other. The individual killed, Avi Boaz, held dual US-Israeli citizenship. The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility.
· On 23 January, Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal’s South Asia bureau chief was kidnapped in Karachi, Pakistan. On 21 February, it was learned that he had been murdered.
· On 31 January, two hikers on the slopes of the Pinatubo volcano in the Philippines were attacked by militants. One of the hikers, US citizen Brian Thomas Smith, was killed.
· On 16 February, a suicide bomber detonated a device at a pizzeria in Karnei Shomron in the West Bank, killing four persons and wounding 27 others. Two US citizens-Keren Shatsky, and Rachel Donna Thaler-were among the dead. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility.

On 14 March, two US citizens-Jaime Raul and Jorge Alberto Orjuela-were murdered in Cali, Colombia, by motorcycle-riding gunmen.

· On 17 March, grenades were thrown into a Protestant church in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing five persons including two US citizens, Barbara Green and Kristen Wormsley.
· On 27 March, a HAMAS homicide bomber entered the crowded restaurant of a hotel in Netanya, Israel, and detonated a bomb, killing 22 persons, including one US citizen, Hannah Rogen.
· On 7 June, US citizen Martin Burnham, who along with his wife, Gracia, had been held hostage for more than a year in the Philippines by the Abu Sayyaf Group, was killed as Philippine military units on a rescue mission engaged the terrorists in a firefight. Gracia Burnham was wounded.
· On 31 July, a bomb planted by HAMAS terrorists exploded at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, killing nine persons and wounding 87 others. Among the dead were five US citizens-Benjamin Blutstein, Marla Bennett, Diane Leslie Carter, Janis Ruth Coulter, and David Gritz.
· On 8 October, in Failaka Island, Kuwait, gunmen attacked US soldiers conducting a live-fire exercise killing one Marine, Lance Cpl. Antonio J. Sledd.
· The worst terrorist attack since September 11 occurred on 12 October at a resort in Bali, Indonesia, when a car bomb exploded in a busy tourist area filled with nightclubs, cafes, and bars. The attack killed over 200 persons from two-dozen nations. Seven US citizens died-Deborah Lea Snodgrass, Karri Casner, Jacob Young, Steven Webster, George "Joe" Milligan, Megan Heffernan, and Robert McCormick.
· One US citizen-Sandy Alan Booker-died in the Moscow theater attack on 23 October as Russian commandos attempted to rescue 800 hostages held for three days by Chechen terrorists.
· On 28 October, a gunman in Amman, Jordan, shot and killed Laurence Foley, a senior administrator of the US Agency for International Development, as he was leaving his home for work.
· On 21 November in Sidon, Lebanon, an office manager/nurse at a church-run health facility, US citizen Bonnie Denise Witherall, was killed by a gunman.
· Three US citizens-Kathleen Gariety, William Koehn, and Martha Myers-were murdered on 30 December by a gunman who stormed a Baptist missionary hospital in Yemen and opened fire."


That's just 2002, shall I continue til present?

Kendra,

While you've listed many examples there let's rewind and look at what I said originally:
"1) Since 9/11 there have been no *major* attacks on US soil or citizens OUTSIDE of a warzone. "

Note the emphasis of the word "major" there. These are all minor attacks. Moreover, most of your examples weren't direct attacks on Americans, but rather Americans were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Also take note of the phrase "outside of a warzone". As a part of Operation Enduring Freedom, the Philippines is considered a war zone.

However, I have to congratulate you for amassing a stunning amount of evidence as to why the War on Terror is a just and noble endeavor. If anyone had any doubt as to why we fight terror-you've done a great deal to aleviate it.

So...any examples of major attacks? Something with causualties over 100 or damage in the millions of dollars.

Also, welcome to the discussion!

-Kiamat Dusk
"No escape from the mass mind rape!" -RATM

If a thousand people die in a thousand separate incidents, they don't count? You honestly think that spectacular and sporadic terrorist attacks are a better benchmark than frequent "minor" attacks?

That's asinine.

yep, and never mind the fact that there's no proof that any attacks have been prevented. Who needs logic when you have jingoism?

Nobody questions that an effective campaign against terrorism is necessary. My contention is that your chimpanzee pResident is doing a damn lousy job of it --oh by the way?

The tragedy of September 11th happened on HIS watch.

Kendra,

Very true that Sept 11th occured on Bush's watch-but it was planned during Clinton's. Moreover, Clinton had no less than 3 opportunities to kill Osama bin Laden during his presidency and failed to do so. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/5/153637.shtml
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4540958

At least Bush took real action.

And Ardith, my intent was not to detract from the tragedies Kendra listed, just to point out that they did not fall under the criteria I listed. If we are gonna do it like that, we might as well as list each and every murder in the US.

Chip, the very fact that they haven't happened is proof of the deterrence. You Liberals are always quick to credit Republicans for atrocities, even ones perpetrated by others, but can't stop to give the least bit of credit to anything positive they might have done. You'll happily accept that Bush could actually conspire to destroy the Twin Towers but won't give him credit for defending the country.

-Kiamat Dusk
Elusive Black Republican

Maybe it's because they're busy kill our troops in Iraq?

interesting --and yet I notice you blame Clinton for the '93 WTC bombing which occured less than 2 months into his administration --while 9/11 occured 9 months into Bush's.

Also the Cole bombing took place as Clinton was leaving --prosecution of the crime would have belonged to Bush. Can't have it both ways, Bucko.

He did?? What did he do?

True, the first one was likely planned during Bush Sr.'s administration.
However...as for the prosecution of the Cole crime:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/29/yemen.cole/index.html

Ummm...he invaded Aghanistan and overthrew the Taliban gov't who was protecting Osama bin Laden.

-Kiamat Dusk
Running out of witty signatures

Uhm --- The Taliban still controls the vast majority of Afghanistan and Bin Laden is still at large.

http://www.cursor.org/stories/secondcoming.html

Bush pulled out of Afghanistan to attack a defensless sovereign nation that didn't attack us and posed no threat.



To my knowledge Bush's only real action after 9/11 was to go into hiding for three days and then stand on some rubble with a megaphone while spouting nationalistic jingoism that Hitler would have been proud of.

Not only that, he also misdirected funds designated for the war in Afghanistan for use in planning the Iraq invasion.

Uh, no... sorry. It's not. Unless you'll accept that the very fact that the earth hasn't crashed into the sun is proof that I'm keeping it in orbit with the power of my supermind! Claims without evidence are proof of nothing.

Damnit -- I lost a $20 bet with Zugzug now. Ya sure, Chip?

How about a link to an actual news article and not the blog of a Women's Studies professor?

Defenseless? Posed no threat? Tell that to the 300,000 Kurds he gassed. Tell that to the Iranians he gassed. Tell that to the Kuwaitis he invaded.

Oh, and tell the US pilots who were shot at DAILY patrolling the no fly zones.

So where were you and your buddies when Saddam was running state sponsored rape and children's prisons? Oh! But that's ok because they were a soveriegn nation!

You know what Hitler would approve of? The support of a dictator who was paying $250,000 to the families of suicide bombers who attacked Israel. Yeah, you and he would be tight.

-Kiamat Dusk
Sleeping with a clear conscience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendra Bancroft
Uhm --- The Taliban still controls the vast majority of Afghanistan and Bin Laden is still at large.


How about a link to an actual news article and not the blog of a Women's Studies professor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip Midnight
Claims without evidence are proof of nothing.

This is why Conservatives are labeled as southern hick morons. Threads and discussions like this. Only a Conservative will call someone a traitor for having a different opinion. Frankly they're the ones who completely stomp on what America stands for. The day Americans stop criticizing our government and it's action is the day the spirit of America dies.

That said, Saddam was none of our business. He posed no threat to us. I, my self, am an isolationist, a believe far older then "America is the police of the world", and a belief held until the outbreak of world war. It is not out responsibility to deal with every dictator and evil person on earth -- because if it was we'd have a lot more to worry about.

THAT ALSO SAID, our air men also do not count in this. Nor do our soldiers. We brought them there and while I wish them well and the best of luck and mourn each death -- we still brought them there. We attacked Iraq. What, is Iraq supposed to just bend over because we are the mighty US of A? People die when you attack another country. Our airmen would die every day if we attacked Sweden. Does that make Sweden a threat?

No.

I love our troops and would in any war they entered. That doesn't mean I need to agree with the war. Or that disagreeing in the war makes me, or anyone else a traitor.

Yeah, theres been no local terrorist attacks right now, but unless we keep up a constant war, when we let our guard down we WILL recieve retribution from these groups. Other option? Constant war. Much more costly, many more lives lost.

Stop being narrow minded. People like you are killing this fine Country.

and yet not as tight as he was with Rumsfeld.

misogynist much?