Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

Wednesday, again and again and again...

Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-13-2006 18:35
From: Jillian Callahan
They are - that's clear.
You interested in paying for a proper testing method? I can't.
Easy to say. You have any suggestions on how they might manage to put thier code into the sort of large-scale and intense testing it needs? If you can manage that without doubling or tripling customer costs, that'd be best.


I'm sorry Jillian, but i think allocating their monetary resources efficently to solve the problems (and avoid them happening) is LL's responsibility as a company, not mine or any other resident's. I find the "if you don't know how to solve the problem yourself shut up" reasoning to be quite weak honestly. I'm not the one that's paid for it. Actually we're the ones that PAY for it.
For many many people around here SL is for sure the most costly online environment ever. We pay LL hundreds of dollars a month, it's THEIR responsibility to use those dollars to make sure that paying customers don't have to spend multiple days a week dealing with downtime AND experience breaking bugs.
_____________________
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
08-13-2006 19:02
From: Shiryu Musashi
I'm sorry Jillian, but i think allocating their monetary resources efficently to solve the problems (and avoid them happening) is LL's responsibility as a company, not mine or any other resident's. I find the "if you don't know how to solve the problem yourself shut up" reasoning to be quite weak honestly. I'm not the one that's paid for it. Actually we're the ones that PAY for it.
For many many people around here SL is for sure the most costly online environment ever. We pay LL hundreds of dollars a month, it's THEIR responsibility to use those dollars to make sure that paying customers don't have to spend multiple days a week dealing with downtime AND experience breaking bugs.
I find saying "It's not good enough!" and then having no idea how to make it better to be a far weaker argument. In fact, your suggestion that better money management would help is pure assumption.

I think that LL is working to make sure we don't have to experience lots of downtime. I also think we're suffering now for some lack of vision during the first moments of SL's design, something we have to endure in order to correct.

As for paying for it... I do have a question: If it's well below your expectations, why are you still paying for it? This isn't a "don't like it? Leave!" statement: we're all here bolstering LL's existence and in doing so we're not giving them much incentive to re-think thier methodology.

Where's the organised, level-headed campaign of folks saying "We're dropping to free-account status becasue these problems have become intolerable"? I'm not talking the empty threats from individuals to take thier ball and go home, I mean a real campaign carefully constructed to send a clear message to LL?

I'm not interested in doing so myself: I've seen LL working to make it better, and they are coming along on many things and they do have a history of getting things fixed for the most part. I'm satisfied, by and large. (Though I do think it's time to tighten the reigns on the "do what interests you" school of management make-believe and start pointing devalopers at old bugs with a "Get that fixed, then you get your choice of fun projects" kinda thing.)
_____________________
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-13-2006 19:26
From: Jillian Callahan

I think that LL is working to make sure we don't have to experience lots of downtime.


And since we DO have to experience lots of downtime AND bugs again and again and again, this can only mean that they're not working enough.

From: someone
As for paying for it... I do have a question: If it's well below your expectations, why are you still paying for it? This isn't a "don't like it? Leave!" statement: we're all here bolstering LL's existence and in doing so we're not giving them much incentive to re-think thier methodology.


The "don't like it? Leave!" Is, exactly as "you don't know how to solve it, Shut up!" Another of those stereotypical extremely weak arguments normally used by one company's or game's fanbois that think that their favourite company/game shouldn't bear criticism.
I'm on SL for the friends i have here, for sure not for LL's crappy managment.
I already tiered back one step, and the reason why i don't get an island is exactly because i think that LL is FAR too much below the minimal efficency level to deserve that kind of money.

From: someone
(Though I do think it's time to tighten the reigns on the "do what interests you" school of management make-believe and start pointing devalopers at old bugs with a "Get that fixed, then you get your choice of fun projects" kinda thing.)


On this i agree, but that still calls back to the fact that LL's current resource (human resource in this case) allocation is crappy to say the least.
LL shouldn't be a summer camp for stressed game developers in search of entertainment. It's a business, and businesses need EFFICENCY to attract and keep their customers. That's all.
_____________________
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
08-13-2006 19:49
From: Jopsy Pendragon
Sigh. Folks SHOULD go to the preview grid and TEST stuff instead of complaining on the forums about the wednesday downtime.
Oh come on, the updates proceed despite the bugs. The ones I am most annoyed about, such as the inventory problem, were broken long ago.
_____________________
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
08-13-2006 20:37
From: Shiryu Musashi
And since we DO have to experience lots of downtime AND bugs again and again and again, this can only mean that they're not working enough.
Depending on whether they have the resources or not.
From: Shiryu Musashi
The "don't like it? Leave!" Is, exactly as "you don't know how to solve it, Shut up!" Another of those stereotypical extremely weak arguments normally used by one company's or game's fanbois that think that their favourite company/game shouldn't bear criticism.
I'm not saying that. I'm suggesting organising to drive the point home for LL.
From: Shiryu Musashi
I'm on SL for the friends i have here, for sure not for LL's crappy managment.
I already tiered back one step, and the reason why i don't get an island is exactly because i think that LL is FAR too much below the minimal efficency level to deserve that kind of money.
Well, in your assumtions, sure.
From: Shiryu Musashi
On this i agree, but that still calls back to the fact that LL's current resource (human resource in this case) allocation is crappy to say the least.
LL shouldn't be a summer camp for stressed game developers in search of entertainment. It's a business, and businesses need EFFICENCY to attract and keep their customers. That's all.

Well, if you really read my point above, you'll understand that while we may disagree of a few points, all I'm suggesting is trying to get LL's attention on the problems we see in an organised, clear, non "noise" sort of way.
_____________________
Osgeld Barmy
Registered User
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 3,336
08-13-2006 21:07
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
Torley's blog says

http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/08/11/some-more-fixes-coming-your-way/


There is no 1.11.3(2) or 1.11.4 in a user accessible preview.


ok my bad, my blog tracking has slowed waaaaaaayyy down since they switched the rss feeds from utf-8 to windows encoded (or whatever the hell it is)

so now my little lsl headline reader spouts out

CODE
I often parse text as if I’m listening to a fugue by J.S. Bach


instead of

I often parse text as if I'm listening to a fugue by J.S. Bach.

in a full llDialog =/
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
08-13-2006 21:17
From: Shiryu Musashi
When i read this kind of justification i honestly smile of a sad smile. Players pay to be on the main grid, not to be LL's testing team. We are already LL's content creation team, wich spares them a LOT of money from creating a competent and functional one by themselves, maybe they should understand that they have to do part of the work themselves. Testing is a good example. Sure, part of the community can HELP testing as volunteers, as it happens somewhere else. But the RESPONSIBILITY of testing definately doesn't rest (or shouldn't rest) on the shoulders of the paying customer. This is where the incompetence lies. If major bugs slip in at every update LL should finally realize that their testing facilities are insufficent, and as such strenghten them, otherwise they should at least give more time to such lacking facilities to do their work.


I'm paying to be part of a dynamic and changing world. Testing is like votiing, it's a civic duty. The way I see it, either we participate in testing... or we're at the whim of the winds of change and without justiifcation for complaint.

We could always volunteer to pay LL more $ so they can hire more testers... I'm not really wild about that idea though.
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-13-2006 23:00
From: Jopsy Pendragon
I'm paying to be part of a dynamic and changing world. Testing is like votiing, it's a civic duty. The way I see it, either we participate in testing... or we're at the whim of the winds of change and without justiifcation for complaint.


Honestly i see no realism in this kind of attitude.
We pay for a service. A service that LL has to provide. We have no duty or obligation to help LL in any other way than actually PAYING them. And as paying customers we definately have all the possible justification for complaint.
If they can't provide efficent service with the (lots of) money we give them, then the problem is on THEIR side, and it's THEIR duty to solve it, not ours. Some of us may volunteer to help, but they sure shouldn't COUNT on us.
We already help them more than enough by providing them all the content they boast about on their website, as i said, it's time LL gets the fact that they have to do some of the dirty work by themselves, instead of working just on what they LIKE.
_____________________
Marcuw Schnook
Scripter
Join date: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 246
08-14-2006 01:35
From: Jopsy Pendragon
Sigh. Folks SHOULD go to the preview grid and TEST stuff instead of complaining on the forums about the wednesday downtime.


Why?
LL portaits SL as a money making game. Hence the prices for land tiers, sims, islands and the ability to exchange L$ valuta based on USD.

If you go to the preview grid (look at the name: PREVIEW) what's the incentive?

Does one get PAID to TEST on the PREVIEW grid? No.
Why should I do the job of LL?

If they would pay me a reasonable amount of L$ in the REAL/LIVE grid (as a CS professional this would range from EUR50-EUR75 per HOUR) then I'd consider spending a few hours every week in the PREVIEW grid to TEST.

Also, because I see it as a game, I don't care much about making money. But I know for others it's more then a game.

And with the contant updates on Wednesday, a part of the world allways gets the finger-you-know-where because of the regular long downtime in their primetime. Not even to mention the instability and closure-of-the-grid because of bugs, glitches and other unforeseen issues.
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
08-14-2006 03:54
You know I play sl to get away from the selfishnes and memememem Bs of the real word.By to say "We have no duty or obligation to help LL in any other way than actually PAYING" is just so selfish! Egopeople really need to understand thiis a game and a usinss too as wellfor some. Give i a break MEMEMEME EGO BS.........
Marcuw Schnook
Scripter
Join date: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 246
08-14-2006 04:21
From: Usagi Musashi
You know I play sl to get away from the selfishnes and memememem Bs of the real word.By to say "We have no duty or obligation to help LL in any other way than actually PAYING" is just so selfish! Egopeople really need to understand thiis a game and a usinss too as wellfor some. Give i a break MEMEMEME EGO BS.........


So what are you trying to say here now?

The business people are egopeople for not wanting to playtest on preview?
Or that those just enjoying the game as it is and don't feel the need to playtest on preview are egopeople?
Or both?
Or neither?
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
08-14-2006 04:52
From: Marcuw Schnook
So what are you trying to say here now?

The business people are egopeople for not wanting to playtest on preview?
Or that those just enjoying the game as it is and don't feel the need to playtest on preview are egopeople?
Or both?
Or neither?


Point is aimed to shiryu remark.............
Shiryu Musashi
Veteran Designer
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,045
08-14-2006 05:55
From: Usagi Musashi
You know I play sl to get away from the selfishnes and memememem Bs of the real word


It's not a matter of selfishness. People pay LL to play the game, not to be their testers. Quite simply it's not the resident's responsibility to help LL in any way. Some might volunteer to do it, but as a business company providing a service LL should NOT count on it.
_____________________
Baba Yamamoto
baba@slinked.net
Join date: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1,024
08-14-2006 06:13
From: Elror Gullwing
Wish more updates could be 'rolling' updates, or at least maybe only 2 Wednesday's per month.


The problem with updates is in how the system is designed.. As it is now every time the protocol is updated there is a required downtime because the message system that the sims and client use to communicate with each other has changed.. A rolling update is an update that changes only serverside stuff.

Linden Lab is in the process of migrating their message system to a RESTful architecture.. With REST architecture they can roll out most changes without the burden of taking down the grid. At the most there will be a forced disconnect so you can download the newest client after an upgrade.

The change over will take several months at the least while they transition to a RESTful design. Beyond updates, it is hoped that the RESTful architecture will also fecilitate a greater integration of web services into Second Life..
_____________________
Open Metaverse Foundation - http://www.openmetaverse.org

Meerkat viewer - http://meerkatviewer.org
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-14-2006 06:22
From: Shiryu Musashi
Honestly i see no realism in this kind of attitude.
We pay for a service. A service that LL has to provide. We have no duty or obligation to help LL in any other way than actually PAYING them. And as paying customers we definately have all the possible justification for complaint.
If they can't provide efficent service with the (lots of) money we give them, then the problem is on THEIR side, and it's THEIR duty to solve it, not ours. Some of us may volunteer to help, but they sure shouldn't COUNT on us.
We already help them more than enough by providing them all the content they boast about on their website, as i said, it's time LL gets the fact that they have to do some of the dirty work by themselves, instead of working just on what they LIKE.


I totally concord whit your opinion (sorry for my bad english...this is not my language ^^).
In my Country when i pay for a service... law protect me to have this service! Only here in SL i pay for a service that is not a serius service!. Many weeks agò i had problems whit griffiens and lindens what have do for me? Nothing!. But i give them many of my money every week and every time that i play on SL. Pheraps they are listening only who move milions of rl dollars in Sl whit casinò, sims, ecc ? I think yes, no protection there is for a normal people who just want make a job or simply have fun in SL.
I have played on many MMORG and no one of them is full of problems like SL.
SL is the only game where if you have problems whit another player no one want or can help you! In Sl there is no protection from griffiens, no protection from lag problems that come from lindens server, no protection from money payment problems,....simply no protection from all!
I really think that this is not a serius job service coming from lindens.
This company must re-think many features of this game or will come a day when Sl will die.
Raudf Fox
(ra-ow-th)
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 5,119
08-14-2006 06:29
From: Marcuw Schnook
Why?
LL portaits SL as a money making game. Hence the prices for land tiers, sims, islands and the ability to exchange L$ valuta based on USD.

If you go to the preview grid (look at the name: PREVIEW) what's the incentive?


I suggested in another thread a while back that they need something like a TOP 10 PREVIEW BUG FINDERS or something, and that it needs to reflect on the main account. Why would people want to get on the preview when they could be spending that time on the main grid, getting their L and making money?

Personally, I use it as a learning tool for making outfits and making new designs. The money there doesn't count and I do find bugs and report them, but this doesn't mean that people are going to be of a like mind as I.
_____________________
DiamonX Studios, the place of the Victorian Times series of gowns and dresses - Located at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Fushida/224/176

Want more attachment points for your avatar's wearing pleasure? Then please vote for

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1065?
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-14-2006 06:36
From: Shiryu Musashi
Honestly i see no realism in this kind of attitude.
We pay for a service. A service that LL has to provide. We have no duty or obligation to help LL in any other way than actually PAYING them. And as paying customers we definately have all the possible justification for complaint.
If they can't provide efficent service with the (lots of) money we give them, then the problem is on THEIR side, and it's THEIR duty to solve it, not ours. Some of us may volunteer to help, but they sure shouldn't COUNT on us.
We already help them more than enough by providing them all the content they boast about on their website, as i said, it's time LL gets the fact that they have to do some of the dirty work by themselves, instead of working just on what they LIKE.


Just another new about that: Lindens want close this forum !
I think that this is another lindens trick to not show to the rest of the internet community what of bad there is in SL. To close the forum is a serius job service? Really do you think that this will help all of us? I think no, we will not have anymore advises of service problems in Sl, so no one of them will can anymore write here what is the opinion.
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
08-14-2006 08:16
This isn't a 'regulated utility'. We don't decide if we pay "enough", we only decide how much we want to pay.

If you want guaranteed service look to the electric providers. Oh except when we're having rolling black outs. Or look to the water utility.. which in many cities provides tap water so foul tasting as to be nearly unpotable. How about the gasoline? Where we now get one third of the gas we used to only a few short years ago for the same money.

We pay. Our only entitlement is to opt out, and all the complaining in the world isn't going to change that.

I'm rather tired of the "I pay for this... it should be better... with no downtime." selfish & thoughtless self-contradiction. "better" requires experimenting and downtime, no downtime requires no change, no improvements, code stagnation and all the consequences that brings.

YES quality control could be better... YES we may find bugs they don't prioritize resolving... or don't acknowledge as bugs. But it can be damned hard to please 10 people, much less 100,000+ people.

--
If it's worth something to you...
then quit being selfish and help.

If it isn't, then quit whining.
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-14-2006 09:00
Really: how much the lindens have payed you to write this? And in what kind of universe do you live?
It is normal for you pay for nothing?
I live in Rome and i have no one of this kind of problems whit my services.
This is not a problem of money: this is a problem of serius people. Some people are serius, some no. This is all.
LL doesn't care about dealing with griefers and doesn't understand the problems of residents: this is the only true !


P.S. :
My electric provider have service for 55.000.000 of people in all Italy (European Union= we pay in Euro, much stronger than Dollar) whitout problems, not only for few people like the number of avatars in Sl.
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
08-14-2006 11:09
From: Tamara Czervik

I live in Rome and i have no one of this kind of problems whit my services. {...}
LL doesn't care about dealing with griefers and doesn't understand the problems of residents: this is the only true !


Last time I was in Italy the trains weren't running due to strikes.

My point was that paying for things that is no guarantee of perfection. Even old tested services aren't perfect.

SecondLife is very much like a wild frontier territory. So much stuff is new and changing. There will be risks and hardships. Inconvenience due to problems and improvments IS guaranteed.

I'm not being paid to say these things... I'm just annoyed at people crying like spoiled children when they don't get what they selfishly think they're entitled to.

If folks can't handle change and downtime, then they're subscribed to the wrong service. They should be using something more boring and reliable, like email.
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-15-2006 05:58
From: Jopsy Pendragon
Last time I was in Italy the trains weren't running due to strikes.

My point was that paying for things that is no guarantee of perfection. Even old tested services aren't perfect.

SecondLife is very much like a wild frontier territory. So much stuff is new and changing. There will be risks and hardships. Inconvenience due to problems and improvments IS guaranteed.

I'm not being paid to say these things... I'm just annoyed at people crying like spoiled children when they don't get what they selfishly think they're entitled to.

If folks can't handle change and downtime, then they're subscribed to the wrong service. They should be using something more boring and reliable, like email.


Before take a service READ ALL ABOUT IT: the money that you have pay for all trains in Italy CAN BACK TO YOU if you write a letter whit the reason of the problem you had and the time that the train have arrived at destination (and of course whit the paper payment). So this service is guarantee ! If you are a tourist that don' t read and don' t know all about the country where you go...well this is a your personal problem, not of the service that you have taken.

Now try this experiment: if you have problem in SL , for example whit a payment for a land, the Lindens will come bact to you your money? (see this: /108/b1/129212/1.html)

Stop please to defend the Lindens: this is not a comportment that see the reality. The lindens every day take more much money from us that the money you can have in all your life, so stop whit this patetic defens ! They have taken the wrong way whit Sl and Sl will go down whit or whitout your defence !

The evidences of that are the facts: Sl is now open for subscription TO ALL WHITUOT A CREDIT CARD OR A BANK ACCOUNT, this is the first sign of the difficults of Sl because this means that Lindens need more residents here = Sl have not sufficient residents in this moment to support a strong money balance for the Linden Lab. Also evidence: Lindens want to close this forum because they want close the opinions of all of us, to stop people from reading what bad is in Sl and leaving SL.

If you are just annoyed so don' t write here and go quickly to play on YOUR perfect SL, i have the right to write here my opinion also if it don' t like you.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Registered User
Join date: 13 May 2006
Posts: 448
08-15-2006 05:59
From: Shiryu Musashi
/3/c6/129353/1.html

Robin told, a few weeks ago, that the "wednesday downtime" policy would have been abandoned for something more balanced (and fair).
My question is: When?
A few wednesdays have passed, and disruptive scheduled bugtime continues to happen and show no sign of slowing down.
So when?


Wednesdays are Groundhog Day!
_____________________
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
08-15-2006 06:06
I have no problem with this policy *grin*

1200 posts on a soon to be past tense forum!

yea.............
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-15-2006 06:10
Shiryu Musashi have all the reasons to write here what is, for him, a very hard problem in SL.

This is not a Mac Donald's fastfood where there is the clown that say "hello" to all visitors to make they happy. THis is a service payed very well and a service that for the first time appear to be gratis-free but is is not! It is payed very very well and Lindens know this true reality.
For this reason they want all of us "happy" also if we are not happy, and if the Lindens say to all of us "hello-welcome here" (like in a fastfood) this is not a sufficient reason to save them for all the problems of SL.
We pay for all in Sl so the question is not what we can do for SL, but what Lindens MUST do for all of us !
Tamara Czervik
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 24
08-15-2006 06:41
Another resident that will leave Sl : /140/07/129937/1.html

This is the kind of news that Lindens don' t want that we know. This is the kind of problems that will be obscured whit the decision to close the forum.
1 2 3 4