Important Clarification from Torley: Yard Sales are NOT Banned

This is a lolocaust.

I'll raise you an eyebrow and throw in a chortle!

Ah, intellectualism at its finest. Much simpler than having to actually read something and (shudder) respond to it logically, huh?

Lists managed by freedom-restricting tyrants are of no concern to anyone here whatsoever.

Where do you think you are, in China?

Morgaine, the blah blah at Ravenelle's post responds to a very simple situation: this issue has been discussed THOUSANDS of times in these forums, and the conclussion of the majority will always be the same: reselling freebies is ethically wrong.

Yes, you might justify yourself, you might write 500 word posts trying to reason why it isn't wrong, you might present a bunch of information trying to change that perception.

But the majority of the community will still think that anyone who resells freebies is a low life scum. Deal with it.

Word.

I shall deal with it. By ignoring it, since it does not have the force of LL law.

Furthermore, any cost-free items that I may create and release under a GPL license shall carry an additional clarification clause, to deal with this blatant attempt at McCarthyism:



I think I'll have to bring this up in Ask Lindens. Given the regular lip service that Philip provides to FOSS, and LL's heavy use of open source products internally and in the released client, I'd very much like to see what he thinks of this forum attempt to restrict the freedoms of software and object creaters within SL.

*shrugs*

As you wish.

Any free items that are clearly marked "you can resell this" are ok in my book, and I suppose the community would agree.

But if I find anyone reselling a normal freebie, I will call him a thief, and so will most of the people.

And I couldn't care less what Phillip, or God himself, had to say about it. Theft is theft.

I only have one question. Why is Coco putting bold headings like "Opinion", "Clarification" and "Answer" above her paragraphs recently? It seems really odd.

Perhaps an alien robot has taken control of her computer

Since nobody took anything from anyone without their permission, how can that be theft?

If you'd care to explain how this is theft, I'm all ears. But in the absence of a logical reason, you're using the word "theft" in the same way that the RIAA uses "piracy" --- ie. purely to lend emotive weight, in the absence of logic.

Amen, I have a few freebies that I have created and set loose into the verse. Nothing would annoy me more than some lazy sod unpacking my generosity and selling to people who simply don't know any different because they are either inexperienced or poor (usually both).

As for the yard sale's - an event without a host, is not an event. I find myself on my own at a 'Yard Sale' (or any other event) and I will AR it.

PS: Private message from Morgaine:

IN which she asks me to edit my posting, and claims that I altered the last word in order to make it appear she said something other than what she actually said. And accused me of lying and forum abuse into the bargain.

Just to make it clear Morgaine, I don't think your original posting had anything to do with morality, which is why I made the change, to put your words into context.

I apologise if anybody else thought I was trying to pretend Morgaine was saying something other than what she actually said - I think it unlikely, because it seemed to me to be pretty obvious what I was doing.

For those who are unaware of this, please note that in Morgaine's original posting, INSTEAD OF THE WORD 'MORALITY', IT READ 'MCCARTHYISM'

I do hope that is clear.

Fine, if you've stated that.

You're the creater of those objects after all, and so it's entirely your right to decide on the conditions under which your creations can be exchanged in the world when you release them. And in this particular case, you wish to enforce that further exchanges shall be at zero cost. Fine.

But note that yours is neither a public domain release (the originator disowns all say over what happens to said items) nor is it any of the open source mechanisms of release or distribution (the originator offers many freedoms to the recipients of said items, including the freedom to charge or not, and these freedoms cannot be withdrawn).

So what kind of release is it exactly? Because by default, if not specified otherwise, the vast majority of people are likely to believe that you are making a free and unencumbered release into the public domain. The precedent for it is vast.

You are working under the false idea that I want, or need, to give you a logical reason.

I don't. I see it as theft because my ethics tell me that it is so. If you want some logical reasons, some people have already provided them in a ton of threads in these forums, and probably they have done it much better than I ever could. I agree with those logical conclussions, but, more than that, I see it as wrong because the morals that I follow in my life describe it as wrong.

If my guts tell me that someone reselling freebies is a bastard, that's how it will be for me. And that's the feeling of a majority of the population, I'm afraid. That's why I told you "deal with it". If you have different morals, good for you, but it is foolish to expect simpathy, sorry!

Now, if you could offer something solid that could change why we see it as morally objectionable, perhaps my guts would feel another way. But up to now all I've seen are just attempts at justifying something which I perceive as wrong. *shrugs*

Yes, I was.

Since I was mistaken about you though, clearly there is no further point in even attempting a reasoned discussion.

Also known as, "since I can't convince you of the way I see things I will shut up".

Mmmmmkay

There is little point attaching a licence agreement to anything released in the verse as any and all licence agreements are unenforcable. This is especially true for scripted items as with minimal adjustments its almost impossible for the original creator to identify.

The point is, taking a freeby item, reducing its permissions and then selling it to the ignorant is morally wrong.

This is off topic.

I hate to add to this thread derailment further, but I want to add the point that there is no way to add a license agreement to a full perm item so that it stays. if something is modable, then the person reselling it can change the name and remove anything they please.

Part of the problem is that Lindens, in spite of all their pro-commerce lip service, have not fixed a flawed permission system in spite of two years of resident demand. To say nothing of the permission bugs which can dump your creation full mod regardless of how you set them.

Why don't they change the name of yardsale events to a rip-off new people event? Then I would have known not to go to one. Shame on the oldsters who do it and support them. Also when an event is held by someone less than a month how the hell did they get a full inventory to sell off unless they filled it with free stuff from the junkyard? RIP-OFF.

By your own admission you are not amenable to convincing through reason or logic. In my world there is no other way.

What is your preferred technique for being convinced by people then? By breaking of knee caps? Sorry, I don't work that way.

If you are not subject to convincing through reason, then you are either a simpleton or willfully anti-intellectual or a self-centered demagogue. It's as simple as that. Reason is what separates the rational from the irrational, by its very definition. If you claim irrationality, we have nothing in common.

You're probably right. However, my point here is that Yard Sales (and most Commercial events) have a reputation that is well-deserved. Coco seems to be crusading for an event category - yard sales - where only 1 in 20 is a legitimate event, as evidenced by my visits above. Also, I was quoted above that I have nothing against legitimate yard sales, however, here's what I think they need:

(1) To ensure that a host is present for the entire duration of the event (3 hour events are automatically suspicious)
(2) A defined start and end time
(3) The host should proactively check permissions for fishy items; any items created by a Linden or available at well known freebie locations (GNUbie in Indigo, YadNi's) should be removed in advance.

My guess is that would remove 95% of the yard sales on the list...and I think a lot of us are in agreement on this. I really miss the days where I could actually use the events list.

Regards,

-Flip

Ah, now you are resorting to straw man! yay! How cute

I said *I* didn't want or need to state a logical reason, specially when so many people have done so already (Why repeating points when I agree with then?). But *you* need to give a logical reason. I think the burden of proof rests upon your shoulders in this case.

Care to try actually convincing anyone instead of attacking me? Because that later option certainly won't work

This is like trying to convince a majority that murder is not wrong. You'll need AWESOME arguments!

So do I. I remember when I first joined, Linden announced the events. They should announce ones that are *actual* events. Yes, there is room for favoritism, but oh well.

I did start down that path, until you withdrew unilaterally from logical argument. Until you once again declare yourself open to being convinced by reason, it would be pointless to proceed.

To the community though (not to yourself), my point is simple and entirely self-contained, needing to convince nobody because nobody's counter opinion can affect it nor vice versa.

Any items created under the three very well known ownership and distribution instruments of Public Domain [Content] and Free Software and Open Source Software are by default not subject to any mandated selling at zero cost, unless LL states otherwise. They are subject only to whatever conditions their copyright holders (or in the case of Public Domain, their owners) decide shall hold.

Period.

To coercively enforce further conditions upon the products of others under some wierd planned economy rules is simply not acceptable, for products under those three categories. For products created under different categories, I say nothing at all, other than that the conditions of distribution selected by their creators should apply, as always.

That's not a half bad idea - especially coupled with the idea of using residents to moderate the events list. Its clear LL doesn't have a time / manpower to do it; at least let the residents do it so those of us that care about a usable, spam-free events list can have it!

Regards,

-Flip

You are obviously too smart for any of us. Having said that, I think since you are an obviously an intelligent informed person that you have seen all the numerous threads and opinions within the community on this matter.

I come to the conclusion in your case that you think you are so much more intelligent that you have something new to bring to the argument and or you are on a troll. I lean toward the latter and wish you all the best in your pursuits because I see nothing new being brought forth in your argument.