Depression.

You have to be kidding??
You think I am a "jerk"???

Wow, that is a first.
Let's see, using drugs, drinking, taking dangerous assignments............. These all attributed to you as signs of "depression". I am very sorry, but I cannot see the world as you paint it. I am neither a jerk; if anything I am am an optimist. I do not and cannot see life as some dimly lit murky thing that must be medicated and coaxed along.

As for suicide, who knows?? Is it your opinion that suicide is the result of depression, period, exclamation point?? Now that is an overly simplistic answer. I will concede that depression, the term formerly known as unhappiness, can lead to a sense of hopelessness, that can lead to a spell of bad judgement. However, I will not concede that everyone that the natural course for depression to follow is to end one's life.

I will also not buy the fact the this is some dirty little secret that has been hiding away in society forever. I am not that gullible. Believe what you will, that's your choice. But your beliefs and choices in no way invalidate mine, you have no control over my thinking. As a matter of fact, no one has any control over my thinking, maybe that's what's wrong with me. My tinfoil hat may be tight, but it is quite effective.

brian

i never said depression= suicide. do not twist my words.

but suicide is caused by something. in the case of my relatives it was depression

quality of life is important. whether or not one is suicidal isn't a measure of whether or not they need help. i was merely pointing out concrete examples of ways ppl have been known to react to depression when they didn't have effective treatment, for whatever reason.

i don't really care if you buy it or not. i became depressed at the age of 10. nobody believed me, nobody would talk about it. i sure didn't hear what happened to my great uncles for decades. i was told 1001 things- i was a bad person to feel sorry for myself when things were good, told to smile, all kinds of stuff, that suicide was a sin, etc. my family turned their back on me when i tried to get help in college.

now, 2 decades later, more ppl understand. a lot still don't. many ppl STILL treat it like a dirty little secret.

as for optimism, you can be depressed and still try to be optimistic, many of us do.
however thinking that things must improve and eventually be ok sure doesn't relieve much of the pain we feel atm.

Hey, that's well and good. But why insist that others should see the world as *you* paint it -- telling depressed people that putting on a tinfoil hat while forcing themselves to smile will be the solution?



The two are not mutually exclusive



What, you think depression is some recent invention? Very well:



Oh yeah, and Hamlet too.

And do a little research and you'll find numerous examples.



I don't see how anyone here wants to control you're thinking. We're just telling you that you are likely misinformed

Sorry Brian, but I'm afraid you're talking out your ass here... you are extremely fortunate not to know depression, and not be able to understand it, but it is very real. I'm an optimist too, but I have always suffered depression, it has nothing to do with my outlook on life. It's more than being simply unhappy, a whole lot more. It's not that it's a "dirty little secret", just something that wasn't previously understood.

Self-medicating with drugs, alcohol etc is a reality for some, and suicide... it's something that lurks within you, surfacing overwhelmingly sometimes, and it takes all your strength to resist. It's not so much (in my experience) "I want to die"... more "I can't bear to live". Those who manage to resist you'll find are incredibly strong people, they're survivors.

It's an illness, in the same way schizophrenia is.... what would you say to a schizophrenic? Would you debate they're not in need of medication, that they don't have a medical condition?

I've had an amazing life, and done many many things most people only dream about, and I love my life... but when I'm not well, I can't even see it for what it is. I can't explain it, but it is so much more than "the term formerly know as unhappiness". So much more. When you're simply unhappy, there's a reason, a cause. When you're depressed, it may not be about anything at all... there may not be an event that triggers it, sometimes you don't even realise you are depressed for a long time. You lose that perspective, your thinking can be too warped to recognise the abnormal.

I find it quite painful to read someone dismiss depression in the way you have. You wouldn't have to walk a mile in those particular shoes before you realised what a serious condition it is, and how painful it can be for those who live it. It's an illness like any other, and sometimes it's terminal. Would you dismiss another person's illness in this manner? If it wasn't a mental illness, would you even be saying this?

Did that seem unpleasant? I guess it's because I think life should be taken seriously only as a last resort. And if the first advice out of anyone's mouth is "seek the help of a professional" I find that very scary. I've seen too many friends go straight to the drugs when they didn't really need them.

I am wary of treading on this sacred cow of the right to feel good no matter the consequences. So I'll simply add to my earlier suggestions:

If you go to a doctor to deal with any mental or emotional problems, be damn sure they devote their full attention in their actual area of expertise to your care. A medical doctor should give you a full examination to make sure there is no actual, physical disease or deficiency underlying your condition. In one study in a mental institution, it was found that over 3/4 of the inmates there were suffering from an untreated physical illness.

In my opinion, depression is often a symptom or sign of a very real problem, and not the problem itself.

What's your own personal history with depression? You and Brian, both?

Van Gogh.

It is a "very real problem", in and of it's own. Mental illness is as 'real' as cancer.

Misinformed??
No way.
Realistic, yes.
I don't buy it, I cant.
Depression in History....................
Sorry, it looks like rationalization in the case of the author, self serving to support his claim. It certainly isn't the first, nor will it be the last, when someone has looked to events in the past, tossed some chicken bones, wrote some vital discovery about why things happened they way they did, and got a 4.0 on their thesis.
I am not doubting chemical inbalances cause issues in the population at large. Now, in the past, in the future. From pms to road rage, people exihibit behaivors, make choices that I do not believe they would normally do. I do doubt the clinical depression........................
That is what I have issues with, period.

Why, you might ask, or might not care, but I will tell you anyway. I was "diagnosed" as being clinically depressed after my divorce. I was a teacher, I was "encouraged" that I must see a professional by my place of employment. I made the appointment, went and sat through his session. Afterwards, he told me I must take medications. I told him I could not take medications and teach, and he said I should take a break from teaching. I laughed so hard, it felt quite good. I walked out of there and never have been back. That whole episode in hindsight confirms every belief I have ever felt about this whole depression thing. It doesn't wash.

As I said, believe what you feel you must. Just don't ever believe that everyone else must believe that way to. We didn't really burn all the books, that was a work of fiction.

I've never been diagnosed with clinical depression. I've never sought such a diagnosis, though. I have experienced what subjectively are a number of periods in my life where I suffered deep depression.

I state my opinion based on my own experience with it, having seen a pattern several times in my life where I would go a few months being completely low, hardly able to think, stuck on the couch, dreaming of suicide night after night. Then I would make some change in my diet, change a relationship, or have the doctor discover I'm allergic to some food I'd been eating, and come up out of it rather rapidly and be happy.

I'm not a depression denyer - I just know it's possible when things are at their worst, that something could actually be wrong.

That's just fucking silly. So because you feel there was a misdiagnosis in your one case, you extrapolate that into therefore this whole depression thing is bunk? That is profoundly illogical.

lorelei: thanks for the historical stuff

fade: agreed, it hurts me too, i grew up with that crap

anande: granted there may be too much rush to mends. there needs to be a balance. that said, many of us have our physical stuff as under control as possible and are still fighting for our lives. on the bright side as far as they can find, i'm healthy as a horse... lol not that it does me a lot of good when i feel so bad life is more like a life sentence.

Brian, I gotta tell you, you're coming across as a big ingoramous to me.

If all it took to make you feel better was to laugh at a therapist, hallelujah! And you're probably right, that wasn't really depression. But just because YOU didn't have it doesn't mean that NOBODY does. You are not everyone. Everyone is not you. Your experiences are not and will never be the same as mine. What held true for you in your life might very well not hold water in mine. Don't you get that?



Not a thesis. A page from the University of Pennsylvania Health System. You know, people who study the stuff rather than just talking off the tops of their heads.



So, it sounds to me like the real issue is that you resent being told by your employer to get yourself right. Any truth to that?



Not sure why you couldn't take medication and teach, but anyway...

You're telling me that your one, single, solitary experience makes you qualified to say that NOBODY has depression. That it doesn't exist? It's all some fantastical construct? Holy cow! Aren't you the smart one. I smell a Nobel prize in your future.



Again, you go on and believe whatever you want, too. Just don't insult people by telling them that the way they feel is all made up. That's a gross insult. And it is cruel. I don't think you can even grasp how mean it is.

fade: it explains a whole lot of his attitude though.

funny tho, while crappy drs have made me far warier and even afraid of them, it hasn't lead me to try to tell others that there's no legitimate reason to use them.

The brain is a physical thing. It's a body organ, just like any other body organ. It can't be controlled by "positive thinking" any more than a urological problem can be controlled by "positive peeing."

(I realize some people think everything can be controlled by positive thinking, but I'm talking about most people, who wouldn't expect to cure kidney disease by cogitation alone. And I do think positive thinking helps, can be learned, and works for many. But I'm talking about things which are physiologically wrong here.)

As such - being as it is a physical entity - the brain can have things go wrong with it. Such things can have symptoms, such as depression. This is in addition to other physical ailments that can have depression as a symptom. The brain itself, though, can have physical problems, rather than just being a mirror reflecting disorders elsewhere in the body. Scientists are beginning to understand more about chemical imbalances, for instance, and now have some medications available to ameliorate them.

As time goes on, hopefully science will understand more about depression, memory loss, Alzheimer's, and various other brain dysfunctions.

It doesn't do much good to say they don't exist - or can be cured by positive thinking - when there may be physiological disorders (including of the brain alone) behind symptoms such as depression.

coco

Have your beliefs, invest in the ruse. I did not insult anyone, I just stated my view. How you might construe a differing view as an insult is beyond me. You don't have near enough knowledge of me to make these assumptions about me. I have no motives, no desire to change anything about your beliefs, no interest in "Nobel Peace" prizes. I shared my beliefs simply as a counterpoint to yours. Not everyone believes as you do, and I can assure you that that is a good thing. I don't think you can comprehend that, so continue on without me.

THAT is what is insulting.

Anyone here who has been tested for an actual chemical imbalance of the brain, raise your hand. Or barring that, show me a study with a proof of this. Plenty of studies have shown that deliberately altering the chemical makeup of the brain (such as with a drug) can effect emotions. Proof of cause has not been established.

Cause and effect where the brain is concerned is more complex than this. People are capable of altering their own thoughts and emotions. Chemicals and other environmental influences are capable of altering them as well.

there is new research showing in animals.. and we'll have to wait for them to say it applies to humans.. that there seem to be chemical scars of a sort showing up in those with chronic depression. researchers believe this may explain why some cases are so hard to treat and may lead to better methods in order to overcome it.

it ain't set it in stone, but sounds to me like they're on to something. perhaps one day we can all get scanned and wave it in ppl's faces and say 'see, that's it right here!' or not. lol
but i'm sure many of us get tired of ppl not believing us because it's not as obvious or clear-cut as a broken bone.

It ain't my 'belief', it's my reality. You have been insulting, including in this post. You're telling people who suffer a serious illness, that they 'are investing in a ruse'. You're saying we're fools, and you're telling people that suffer a terrible illness, 'hey, there's nothing wrong with you, your condition isn't real'. You have no idea how that feels.

Substitute the word depression with any other disability or serious illness, say all that again, and you'll see why it's insulting and hurtful. I think the failure of comprehension has been all yours so far however, so maybe you won't see it.

it's interesting...

i don't know how all the meds work, or why, or have any proof handy that they do other than my existence. but i was depressed before i ever heard of depresson, and i've sought help with and without meds. and the naysayers want to disregard my experience, and that of others like me.

never mind that i may agree there are abuses and misuses and overuses, there are still real ppl with a real and sometimes deadly serious illness. funny they don't seem able or willing to try to meet me halfway, apparently their wisdom trumps my experience. gee i must be cured now! (cranky? meeeee? lol)

Umm yeah, anyone with this experience is probably all too familiar with the fact that there are issues with medication, and medical treatment, misdiagnosis etc.

As far as I know, there is no blood test for chemical imbalances in the brain. However, there is a huge body of study regarding the various neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, and various drugs that can inhibit their uptake. For those who apparently don't have enough serotonin (for instance - and I'm not real up on all this or all the chemicals involved), serotonin uptake-inhibiters can improve their mental outlook and alleviate depression. For some, a short course is sufficient; others require it on a long-term basis.

And this study is really only in its infancy.

Cause and effect where the brain is concerned is VERY complex. My point to Brian and others is that the brain is a physical organ, just like any other. There is not such a thing as "aware mentality" which exists without any physiological basis - electrical, chemical and anatomical - that can be manipulated as desired, regardless of the condition of the underlying organ.

So for people to disbelieve that things can't go physiologically wrong within this complex organ - including depression, whether from situational or physiological causes (and one can lead to the other) - or that medications and other interventions can't ameliorate it, is . . . silly. I might not want to believe in cancer, but cancer can happen whether I "believe in it" or not.

coco

Coco thankyou

Your posts have been very well expressed.

Hmm, well, things could end up drifting off into philosophies here, but before that I'll say what I agree with.

-Depression is real.
-It is often misdiagnosed, overdiagnosed, and medicated more than necessary.
-People who suffer from it should not be treated as if they are liars, or somehow immoral or unworthy.

Ok, now back to the thick of this. Philosophically, I think the difference in approaches here has to do with how different people feel about psychotropic drugs. Any drug which has a mental or emotional effect does it by interfering with or bypassing one of the body's natural mechanisms for communicating something, be it pain, pleasure, stress, endrocine imbalances or whatever.

I feel that if you take a drug to alleviate depression or anxiety, it very well can make your life more pleasant. But it is at the expense of one of these natural channels of warning. It comes at the expense of losing contact with part of your mind or body. You could be covering up and preventing the healing of something else which needs fixing. That's why I say do everything, check everything possible to sort out what might be going wrong in your life before resorting to psychotropic drugs.

I think medical doctors and their patients are getting too lazy about this. It's too easy to just prescribe a drug to cover up a headache or a stomachache, or depression and anxiety, without digging deeper into possible causes. To me, this is the betrayal or "ruse" of the drug companies, not that these conditions aren't real, but that they aren't really getting in there and fixing them properly.