Hard Alley is Sick sick sick!

Because you aren't rational? Because you attack rather than explain?

Those two things come immediately to mind.

Roleplay still takes two. It's consensual and ooc. Those that roleplay out such scenes are not into running around and raping people in real life. It's like playing a video game. I can shoot people all day long in GTA San Andreas, but when I hit a cat or a squirrel on the road, I feel horrible about it.

The same goes with roleplay for a lot of people. It's fake.

Exactly. The SLascists who are working so hard to make sure that only things they find appropriate are alloed by the Lindens will get around to everyone eventually.

To adapt the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller to Second Life:

First they came for the ageplayers, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t an ageplayers.
Then they came for the Goreans, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Goreans.
Then they came for the Furries, and I didn’t speak up,
because I didn't have fur.
Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

Pretty soon, the slogan will have to be changed to "Bigot's World. Bigot's Imagination."

Vivianne, you are the one attacking...calling people "nutjobs" is an attack....

And I did explain, you just did not listen.

And I did not bring up my views on pedo-playing, Gor, or BDSM because it does not matter, and you don't want to hear them anyway. You just want to start a fight, and to alienate people who see things differently than you do by calling them "self-righteous nutjobs".

I explained this already and pointed out your hypocrisy in calling other people self-righteous while you yourself are being self-righteous, something you still don't seem to understand.

Well, it really doesn't matter. You only started this thread to fight.... Sorry I said anything.

Gor would be great if most of the people in it took that angle on it.

They don't. Thus the problem.

And how long have you roleplayed in gor for?

Wow. Sounds cool! Graet place to take a date in SL! Location..?

Exactly! If people don't like sex in SL, let them start a Shaker sim. Grind out some chairs instead of moves, see if I care. Don't harass people because you don't like what they do in their free time. Is tolerance really that difficult a concept?

That's like saying $cientology can't be condemned by anyone who wasn't once a $cientologist. Don't be obtuse.

I read some of the books and participated only about 20 minutes in Gor culture before I found myself counselling at least 4 women out of abusive relationships where Gor had "gone wrong". So far, since joining SL, I've counseled at least 15 Kajira out of the culture and had to protect at least half of them, in one form or another, from very aggressive and angry "masters" that "forbade" them to leave the culture.

Being an actual Dominus and Master IRL, as well as SL, I abhor Gor and the way it is roleplayed on the internet and lived as a culture is a defamation, a travesty, and a pathetic excuse for the insecure to abuse the insecure.

Dawn,

I take Vivienne's comments to refer to those who feel that their own view of the world is the only valid one, and attack other people who cause no harm, but who don't fit in the person's idea of what is 'moral' or 'good'. I don't know whether you are one of those people, but if you are, then I think you are a nutjob.

Vivienne has a made a valid point, and I, for one, am alarmed by the disgusting intolerance I have recently seen on these boards.

What, because there are abusive Gorean relationship you deplore all Gorean roleplaying? If that's the case you might as well abhor all human relationships because some couple's relationships becomes abusive.

Some of those who attack Gor say that anyone who calls himelf a Master automatically qualifies as a wanker.

Why bother with all the useless hysteria? Really? What will any kind of ranting on this forum do? I read once about how some anti-iraq protesters were interviewed and how they participated in a peace march because it made them feel good but the fact was their protest contributed absolutely nothing to changing the policy in Iraq. It was done purely for personal gratification. The article went on to say that Al-Qaeda does the same thing and that their terrorism does nothing to forward their goals. Sorry for these examples.. But... I hope it gets my point across that almost all of the massive anti-immorality protesting we see on this forum is just useless fluff that self gratifies the original poster and merely entertains the thousands of comfortably bored onlookers who surf this forum when SL is down or unavailable.

So you believe that gor is the lone reason that these women are mentally abused?

You really need to roleplay in several gorean sims over the span of several months before you can come to any honest conclusion about it. Not to mention, there is two sides to every story. While the "slaves" of gor may have told you one side, I've seen a lot of slaves also play the pity role time and time again for attention.

One specific incident involved a Man who owned a slave. She wanted to leave his collar roleplay wise and go elsewhere. Yet, that breaks roleplay. He was staying in character, she wasn't. She then went around telling everyone that he was forbidding her from leaving the realm. That wasn't the case at all. It's an online game, it is easy to simply walk away. You can't "forbade" anyone to leave the culture.

You also may be thinking specifically of the gorean sims that have a lot of lifestylers in it. However, the top gorean sim is strictly a roleplay sim in which it is a rule to keep things consensual....which, may be why it's the top gorean sim. People feel safe and comfortable to rp there. lol

THe *Majority* of such relationships in Gor are abusive. There's your difference. I'm not at all undereducated on what I'm talking about here. In about 13 years of exposure to Gor, I've only encountered 2 relationships, in close proximity, that weren't abusive and that I didn't end up being the beginning of an end to.

What has me abhorring Gor as a system now is that it gives the rest of us, the legitimate "it's about trust as much as control" Masters and Mistresses, a bad name. Much as many Christians likely think Pat Roberson's ilk are a bunch of douches, how many Pagans are irritated with Silver Ravenwolf and her books, and how many Republicans now despise Bushco.

13 years of exposure to gor? I think you have the gorean "lifestylers" mixed up with the gorean "roleplayers". There is a HUGE difference between the two.

I find it hard to believe a 10 post defender has the experience they demand of others.

But the girl was right. The Master should have responded "well, it's been fun" and RP'd her out. She was *leaving the roleplay* so trying to force the RP on her by reacting with continued RP is, indeed, abusive.

They mix here. The exposure is to both.

Edit: Gor has been around as lifestyle, as well as RP, for about as long as I've been alive. I'm 25.

What does my amount of posts have to do with my knowledge of this? Nothing.

Well, when a Master and a slave break things off, it's hard for some people. We're only human. But then, I guess whenever there is a problem in a relationship between two people, it's all the man's fault as usual. These slaves are completely innocent through all this right? After all, you said you counselled these women, and heard their side of the story. And you feel you can pass judgement on gor as a whole. Very interesting.

You act like I've only talked to the slaves. I've talked to the Masters and Mistresses, too. Usually, they are very hostile to anyone who would assist their "slave" in leaving the Gor culture. Others have left themselves, becoming disgusted with what the majority of their peers have done.

Further, I"m in a group called Capture Roleplay that is dedicated to forced sex and forced servitude roleplay. In that group, we have to remind people constantly that if a Gorean tries to force them to set their home point on Gor land and try to force slavery on them, they do not have to consent. Lots of tears have been shed by Goreans trying to exploit our RP system to nab slaves that don't want to be part of the culture and become RL terrified of leaving.

You really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Terrified in real life? Of what happening?

If that's the case, there's more wrong here than just Gor.

That said, I know that when I left, it wasn't easy. There was a lot of emotional manipulation and attempts at controlling behavior.

Yes, I know such things can exist in any relationship. However, Gor rp is fertile ground for an individual who would seek to exploit someone more vulnerable. In essence, it encourages the pairing of domineering, controling people with people who are too dependent on others. That is the danger.

One thing Goreans say is true: Gor is for the strong. People who are real life terrified of leaving it should have never been there in the first place. But if they are, then no one should dare impede their exit from it.

I <3 Selador

You've been exposed to Gorean lifestyle people since you were 12?

I was helping my mother with her COBOL and BASIC homework when I was 4. The first time I read anything about Gor was on a website I reached via the old Prodigy ISP. Got to know culturals and RPers from there.

So yes.

Gor in SL in particular has a lot wrong with it. Only after multiple AR's and calling the police IRL did one Master stop harassing a "slave" that decided to leave Gor but was afraid of him. It's not uncommon for Gorean Masters to order their slaves to divulge RL information on threat of being punished or banished from the community and blacklisted in various ways.