Transgendered Avatars: An Ethics Question

Gender actually matters to some people?

Bah! You jokesters, you almost had me going there for a minute!

Of course no one's that crazy.. Hopefully.

Adohan, you really should take those images down, unless you have the permission of the people pictured. Posting chat logs is against the forum rules, and I'll bet that applies to chat captured in screen shots as well. Plus you're "outing" someone's RL info, also a major no-no.

On the other hand, if you *do* have permission... well, have a nice day then.

And remember, all you cross-dressed avatars out there: this is why conversations like this should be taken to IM.

Back in the far distant future, (okay, 1991!) I was playing a male character on a roleplaying MUSH, who got involved with an attractive female dryad. It was only a few days before she confessed to me "Actually, my player is really a guy." to which I replied "Actually, my player is really a girl."

In all honesty, at that point it didn't matter to me one way or the other, as I wasn't even considering the relationship might be more than roleplay. (After that point, it did, as we were married 4 years later )

I think Second Life is a little different in that character roleplay tends to be less emphasized over "being yourself", plus the gender of a graphical avatar strikes you more forcefully than a textual MUSH description - which you may never even notice if you don't botther to 'look' at the person!

First off, since I know the pics will get deleted, I'll follow the TOS and post the log here.

-----------

Guy: im just in shock
Guy: that you are a man
Girl: I know right
Girl: sorry that I couldn't tell you sooner
Guy: almost makes me sick
Girl: but you know you love me
Guy: um
Guy: actually i do
Girl: cause I love you baby
Guy: and i find the whole situation kinda erotic

-----------

I save the text from the conversation because it is a rare thing to see this type of thing happen with an apparent happy ending. Granted, the reasons behind it make me give an odd look, but it's SL. To each his or her own.



This is probably the MAIN reason why people do not out themselves or sometimes even lie to protect it. When the choice becomes whether to be truthful and end up hurting everyone, or to lie and run a chance that everyone can live blissfully unaware, some are more likely to take the easy path.

Ok, I said I was done with this thread, but figured that needed to be added.

*walks away*

I have reported the post. The conversation is not nearly as disturbing as the fact that somebody would take pictures of it, and then post it here. Come on Adohan, you know better than this.

...thank you, ananda!..

...i think a lot of the controversy stems from the fact that, unlike most online games and unlike chat, newsgroups, and such, SL tends to blend both roleplaying and self-representation...there's a vast spectrum of social intercourse where those two approaches intersect, but my own take on the situation is quite simple: to treat every avatar i meet as an idealised self-image and respect the choices made to that end, because ultimately even those players roleplaying strictly in-character are roleplaying an idealised representation of that character...gender, race, age, height, weight, appearance, profession, history - all that RL baggage is ultimately irrelevant to who the person is underneath it all, and although RL situations imposed by certain attributes may shape who a person becomes, ultimately it's the *person* one should judge and not the tenuously-correlated baggage...

...having said all that, i personally am not comfortable treating online relationships any differently from those in RL; i always engage people as myself and can't/won't/don't maintain a rigid distinction between RL and my online personna...for that reason, to me, it's imperative that i approach all relationships by the same criteria - if it's not based upon who i and the other person *are*, window-dressing irrelevant, i make a very deliberate and conscientious effort to avoid it, to avoid drawing myself or the other person into a situation which is at its heart founded upon dishonesty and exploitation...

...i'm fairly androgynous in RL and although i'm new to SL, historically i've used both genders interchangably without problem, as androgynous takes either way are equally-suited representations of my own idealised self-image...perhaps i've been fortunate in that my own online relationships have never thusly floundered in the transition to RL, heck, the transitions have been so blurred that i haven't even been cognisant of the boundary...

...i do recognise that RL baggage isn't as irrelvant to everyone else as it is to myself, though, and that saddens me, since i believe everyone has potential beauty inside and as i come to know them it manifests itself in wonderfully subtle ways; their baggage, once irrelevant, becomes beautiful...as a stranger my own SO's appearance would hardly leave me stumbling in her wake, but the first time i saw her in RL i was boisterously swept away, having had no idea what she looked like yet somehow instantly recognising her as a best friend i'd known all my life...sadly, i regularly challenge her with what-ifs regarding my own weight, height, accent, appearance, gender, etcet, and i lose every time, so i have to respect that some people just can't let go of the baggage and do my best to avoid relationships where it might become an issue...

...ultimately, any time there's potential to become close enough with another person for RL baggage to be a problem, it's easy enough to gauge the other person's feelings on the matter and tread appropriately to avoid a potentially-problematic relationship: to do otherwise truly *is* deceptive, if not outright to the other person, then to oneself in not recognising the issue early on and acting appropriately...

...now if i can only get my SO to quit giving me such a hard time about my avatar's butt being too small!..

In Second Life you are whatever you present.

If you're having cybersex or an online-only relationship, you are the gender you're portraying, and it's completely irrelevant what gender or sexual orientation your FL user is.

For 20 years, I've been playing in virtual worlds as female, male, or more often as an androgynous transhuman; all have been sexually attracted to females or androgynes, because that's what I find attractive in FL, but depending on apparent gender that makes me straight or gay or bi or something else merehumans have no word for.

The other could be any gender (not just the archaic merehuman "male" and "female", and it doesn't matter, it's just text and avatars wiggling around. Why would the FL user matter, if the cybersex or relationship works for you?

If you decide to take it out of SL, then and only then will you have to deal with FL genders, and you're a lot more likely to find a compatible match in SL than in most virtual worlds.

Getting all worked up over what particular bits of meat the user has is just peculiar, more proof of how inadequate merehumans are.

I have removed the images which contained chat logs - please note the Community Standards state:

Well since gender is a self-identified trait, I could tell you I am whatever gender I feel and be completely honest.

If you want to know my anatomical sex, I suppose I could tell you that as well.

If you want to know my chromosome status, I suppose I could tell you that as well.

I don't think I have any obligation to disclose these things to you in an online game.

I am thinking that was a set up coversation folks...

yes, and a picture of the boobs in question, please.

I got the same impression. It sounds about as sincere as, "MMmmm, your cake is moist and delicious." "Why, thank you, Betty, it's Sara Lee!" *canned laughter* "Oh, Sue, you sure fooled me!"