Transgendered Avatars: An Ethics Question

I have to admit I've just crossposted this from a thread where I just promised I wouldn't. But somehow it seems more relavent here.

I think it all comes down to expectations, assumptions and a lack of communications thereof.

My avie is very often a squirrel. Or a mech. Or a cyborg. Or a female. Or a male. Or... whatever avatar I'm playing with at the time. It's an avatar. A shell. How can you make any assumption or have any expectations of me? Why on earth would you assume that I'm anything remotely like my avatar?

Is physically representing yourself as something other than what you are behind the keyboard wrong? Isn't part of the point of SL to live a Second Life - as something else if you want. No! I don't remember it saying it had to be a carbon copy of your first life... but that's one opinion. Mine.

What is a fact - as is evident from these forums - and at the root of the problem is that what you believe is morally or ethically right or wrong isn't where other people draw those lines. You have to communicate to know where those lines fall in a friendship.

Evidently representing yourself as something other than what you really are IS wrong to some. I've read elsewhere here just now an opinion that people should ethically disclose in their profile if their avatar gender is not the same as their real life genders. I've heard people say before that this disclosure should be mandatory. I've read previously people say here that it shouldnt even be ALLOWED. That you shouldn't even have the choice of gender and that it should be dictated by your real life gender. And these kind of views stagger me, and because they are nowhere near where I draw the line I wouldn't even *think* when talking to someone that I might be offending them, or that they could possibly consider me dishonest for not immediately disclosing any differences between my inworld and rl selves.

To me, it's only dishonest to lie. To lie you have to be asked. You might well disagree with this statement! It's one opinion. Mine. But in giving it, and if you disagree, I'm proving my point... we all have different standards. Don't assume everyone you meet is adhering to yours!

So if in doubt, if it matters...ask! Of course, once again, depending on where their opinion lies depends on whether thats any of your business at all

But then if you're the kind of person that this matters to, then you probably aren't destined to be friends anyway!

You can't help other people's assumptions, whether that be that you are what you look like or that you hold even remotely similar views.

In other words, if you think that people should disclose everything about themselves before they can become your friend, then you better interrogate them beforehand, because you simply can't expect them to know that they're suddenly going to become disgusting, shocking and abhorrent to you later on through some seemingly innocent disclosure! If you're going to have mad sexxorz with that hawt girl, as someone said elsewhere, and find out that it's a guy, and you're the kind of person that is going to think you were just turned gay by an act of cybersex, then by god you better ask that hawt girl first because she might equally be of the opinion that if you didn't ask then you didn't damn well care!

Don't even assume that the person you are talking to knows WHO you are talking to... they might be a roleplayer who does not even associate their real life self with this entity you're talking to. You may only be able to talk to their avatars character in SL! I've seen this myself.

We are not all the same! Don't assume anything! Communication is key, people!


I'll shut the fuck up now.

I'm still a lot more understanding of your wishes and feelings than most would be, love. And be fair, the fights have lessened in occurence and intensity.

Yes you are, sweetie. and the fights are getting less and less. It's all a matter of understanding for both of us, and I'm very blessed I have found someone willing to explain as well as to understand.


You see why I love this woman so much?

What I find interesting in all of this is that the topic continues to come up, and generally be discussed, in terms of ethics, right vs wrong etc.

What I dont remember seeing is similar conversations about the RL male who plays a buffed up male avie ... with an appearance of about 20 ... and /hair/ ... (and all the other variants on truth and reality ... )

How come the ethics of that dont get raked out once in a while? I find it quite amazing the way we pick and choose which discussions to have. Where is the role of honesty in those situations?

Thank you Kris, you said it right. I'm not fit and my boobs are way smaller in real life. Do I need to make this disclaimer to someone I meet in SL?

It all depends on whether your relationship would lead outside of SL.

Yes, it was definitely not well worded. If you'd like to understand my point of view, you can read the responses I give in this thread or you can IM me in-world and you can ask away.

(I speak only for myself. Everyone is different.)

"There is a way that girls gossip and have their special bonds and the flirtiness and companionship from men that you can only get when one perceives you as a woman."

That is a pure-D fact.

coco

"There is a way that girls gossip and have their special bonds and the flirtiness and companionship from men that you can only get when one perceives you as a woman."

That is a pure-D fact.

coco

The point is that it's foolish of either side of the equation to assume that another person plays by their set of rules.

To me, it's only dishonest to lie. To lie you have to be asked. You might well disagree with this statement! It's one opinion. Mine. But in giving it, and if you disagree, I'm proving my point... we all have different standards. Don't assume everyone you meet is adhering to yours!

For you.

Some folks may want the company of a real woman or a real man. Online or offline.

For me personally, I would be quite upset if a person I became involved with romantically in SL hid from me the fact that they were the opposite gender in RL than that which they portray in SL. To do so would be misleading and manipulative. People can be hurt by dishonesty, whether or not they expect the relationship to lead to RL, and it's not up to anyone else to decide whether or not their feelings to that end are valid. And it's certainly not anyone else's place to label them naive or stupid for it.

Edit to add:

What I am speaking about above is if a person gets romantically involved in SL, and they know that their partner does not know their true gender, and they are aware that it matters to said partner. Especially if their partner has expressed that they would be hurt by such deception and/or has directly asked about RL gender.

Which begs the question, is it ethical to participate in said gossip and special bonding while hiding the fact that you're really a man? Or the reverse, because men bond in their own way when hanging in a group? I will have to think on it more, I am unsure at this point (unlike how I feel about romantic SL relationships and not divulging true gender).

Hmmm, maybe someone could write a book about their undercover experiences to that end, something of a gender based, "Black Like Me" book.

No offense, but anyone who requires ID for friendly company can kiss my digital ass.

So what happens when someone does not ask the question. I think that's the ethical argument going on here. At what point is someone morally and/or ethically obliged to reveal their RL gender? Assuming your above conditions aren't met.

(For clarification, for most of this conversation, I'm not talking romantically. I'm talking about general chat and association, possibly very light flirting at the most. Like in my example earlier, I've had people not even want to talk with me period due to my RL gender mis-match.)

Also, for the record, I have in the past done this exact type of deception in a sexual relationship (never romantic). For reasoning, it was selfish. I also don't feel guilty about it, as it was a one-night thing, and the particular party and I have not talked since. Now I'll pose this question: Was I in the wrong for doing so?

Well, I don't think it is unethical, because you carry on quite a bit of conversation just based on the way the avatar looks. If an avatar then confides in me, after some time, that he is really a she, or vice versa, then I figure that they just know me better now and want me to know what they really are.

That regards regular friendships. I'm with you on the romance thing. If someone got into a relationship with someone else, and knew that someone else thought they were of a specific gender, and they continued the romantic and/or sexual relationship without disabusing him/her of that notion, they would be taking advantage of the person, imo. I figure you just don't get into a sexual thing with somebody without telling them your actual sex. It's just the considerate thing to do.

coco

I will ask you this: You said "it was selfish." Do you think being selfish is "wrong"?

That goes into a lot of personal issues for me, but to put it bluntly, yes. Being selfish has earned me a lot more trouble than it has ever been worth.

*edited*

way to small to see what your point is. LOL

Ummm, you click on the pics and it displays the larger picture. A fairly new concept.