Transgendered Avatars: An Ethics Question

Here is a good question along the ideas of trasngender disclosure.


Many feel that full disclosure is REQUIRED PERIOD if you play opposite gender in this game. Example being your walking in a mall and someone hits on you...you have to tell them "hey I PLAY a guy here..I'm actually a girl." or vice versa. Others say if you dancer, strip, or escort you are required. Others (and I think 90% here including myself) agree that if there is going to be romantic relations that it be apparent that your current AVIE is not your own.

Where do you think the line is drawn? Is it when you get romantic, or as soon as you make your avatar, or somewhere in between?

EDIT as a side note I have been griefed twice once my RL gender was established. One has since then been banned I think as thier name no longer appears on the "find people" list.

If a TG is someone who's biological sex doesn't match their mental or emotional idea of their true gender, then you could say that:

A transgendered individual is one whos skin doesn't match their mind.

In that case, calling the avatar "transgendered" is the perfect name. I certainly can't think of a better word for it.

For the sake of discussion, whether it's semantically correct or not, it's probably the simplest word for the situation, and certainly the most understandable.

I don't think that anybody means any disrespect towards true transgendered individuals by using the same word to refer to "virtual" TG's: People who play a different gender avatar than their real life sex.

I've also heard it called "cross-dressing", but that's not really correct either, since these people are using female bodies with female clothes, where as cross-dressed avatars would actually be male bodies with female clothes (or vice-versa)

Just to make discussion easier, how about we just let the term stand, while understanding that it's not the same as the "real life" term?

I don't generally ask people their RL genders unless it comes up in casual conversation. I'm not looking for online romance, and certainly not online romance that will bleed over into RL, so someone's gender doesn't make much difference to me.

However, when forming any real relationship, whether it be a romantic interest or a close friendship, honesty is a key factor for me. I don't invest emotionally in people I can't trust, or who don't trust me. There's no future in it.

exactly!

Here's my take. First of all, yes, I have a female AV. I have told all my close friends about this as I don't want to be in game without them and I feel that it would be dishonest not to.

However, I've noticed that once they know they can't help but look for me in my female avatar. My female AV is no more me than any character in the fiction that I write. Part of the reason I enjoy playing her is watching the character evolve; it's like being a medium for this other spirit.

Ok, now I'm careening waaaay off topic.

Anyway, once people know there is a very marked difference in the way they treat you and that ruins your enjoyment of the game. So now I am very selective of who I tell.

Personally I believe that if the relationship remains in game then it should be based on who the people are in game. But once it moves out of game then you have an obligation to tell the other person.

This can be a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to romantic feelings as they tend to run very deep and can develop long before things officially move off line. In that case I feel that one has the responsibility, once it is clear that such feelings are developing, to be honest.

And I agree-one of my main reasons for creating a female AV was the dearth of content for males. I'm looking at *you* SL designers!!!!!

-Kiamat Dusk
aka Nunya

I think also we need to take a moment and ask why someone chooses to play the opposite gender. I have a few friends that play full opposite gender avies to actually supplement thier main true gender self. They have actually seen a difference in treatment between the two genders and yet act exactly the same in both genders. In every game they play as soon as it comes out they are playing the opposite gender they lose that benifit and starts to actually suffer as if they were thier true gender. Be it a MMORPG where sex shoudl not matter at all as there is no sexist profession or here where obviously as in RL certain jobs lean moer towards one sex more then another.

to me, this is a non-issue. In my opinion, if you play a female, and you're really a a guy, no big deal. I base my relationships with people on the way they behave in game. I flirt, I enjoy myself. Those I flirt with may or may not really be who they're playing, but it's cool.

Peace,
Joseph

This brings up a related question for me. Is there a general agreement in what 'moving out of game' means? Is it:
When you're ready to meet face-to-face?
When you're going to talk on the phone?
When you exchange addresses and snail mail?
When you give someone your real email address/AIM/Yahoo Messanger contacts?
When you begin caring about what happens to this person and thinking about them when you're not together?
An emotional investment of any kind?

Yeah, I've heard that a lot of guys play females in MMORPGs because people tend to give them stuff. But the best reason I've heard was from a friend who said, "If I'm going to stare at someone's ass for hours and hours a day, I want it to be a female one."

-Kiamat Dusk

Good question.

For me it's when you start sending pictures, trading phone numbers, making plans to visit, etc. Anything that takes it off the computer.

A very close friend of mine got involved with a guy she met online who turned out to be a woman. She sent my friend pictures of a guy she knew, disguised her voice on the phone, and often made plans to come visit only to cancel at the last minute. When the truth finally came out she was devastated.

-Kiamat Dusk

Wow, I so agree with almost all of what you say here.

My basic position is that it is important to me to know whether the person I may or may not get involved with is actually a RL female. I am not interested in taking any relationships into RL, but it's hard to shake a lifetime of experience gained there. I don't want to sleep with men, I never have and the thought of it kind of creeps me out to be honest.

That being said, SecondLife has thrown a big monkey wrench into my plans in that regard. Although a girl can tell most of the time that half the other "girls" she meets are not really girls, you certainly cant *always* tell.

When I arrived I was extremely confident in my ability to tell the RL girls from the boys, but I have since been fooled several times not only by girls that turned out to be RL boys but by "girls" that are so violent, aggressive and generally a pain in the ass that I was *certain* that they were just a man in a bad wig! (they wern't)

To answer Kiamat's question, what I do (and I am starting to wonder at the wisdom of it) is simply ask the person if they are a boy in RL before anything gets too serious. I have yet to be lied to, and most everyone I asked has immediately eiher confessed or conversely convinced me that I was wrong to ask.
Most people are honest.

The problem is, asking this question (usually), completely ruins the relationship and whatever friendship you have with the person. Things are literally never the same again.

Even if the person turns out to be of the "correct" gender for you, the only way to be sure is to talk to them on the phone or some such other "RL connection" and *that* will also forever change the relationship. There is no way to bring RL into the realtionship so you can "check under the hood" sorta speak, and then take it back out again afterwards.

I find that there is a certain degree of mystery or suspension of belief that seems necessary in SL relationships because *all* of us are to some degree *not* what we are in RL. Maybe her voice on the phone just turns you off, or that picture is just not what you expected. Maybe she just isnt as pretty as you'd hoped. Like April says, even if it's not gender, there are a million and one reasons why someone might want to "keep it in the game" and not reveal their true selves.

All in all, this leaves me stuck between two possibilities. I can stop asking, and end up (possibly) having sex with a man (albeit a man with a really good "woman act", or I can simply do what April does and not bother with online relationships at all. A dilemma I have yet to resolve.

I *can* say with great confidence that if you ask your partners what their RL gender is *before* you do anything with them, you can quite sucessfully reduce your cyber-sex life to ...

zero.

Well, I'll answer that question for myself.

I personally have a very social personality, and a very powerful one, at least I've been told such. I like the idea of being a female because I've always enjoyed the idea of strong female characters. One of the original draws for games like Tomb Raider (no, not for the boobs) and Street Fighter 2 (I always played Chun-Li) was that, for me, it let me place women into powerful and strong roles, roles which are very lacking in modern day society. (Not saying they don't exist, but there certainly aren't enough of them)

Now, why I continue to play a woman in SL has more to do that I enjoy the interactions I have as a woman. As one of my RL women friends pointed out, "Me thinking you were a woman allowed you to slip in under my radar unnoticed, let you into a part I would've been reluctant to share had I known the truth." There is a way that girls gossip and have their special bonds and the flirtiness and companionship from men that you can only get when one perceives you as a woman. It's definitely a refreshing pace from the "regular" interactions I get as a male IRL.

IN the end, I get to be male for (hopefully) 80+ years of my life. It's nice to be able to let my feminine side out to play a few hours a week (ok, more than a few hours ) and indulge in that side I would normally be not only unable to enjoy, but actively shunned from.

LOL not always a few of my girls have asked me what mine is and I have told them...then did have cyber with them. If you ask and state why you ask like say: "I notice you do this like a guy and this like a girl, etc". Few could argue with just wanting to check concidering the virtual world.

Yes, it was definitely not well worded. If you'd like to understand my point of view, you can read the responses I give in this thread or you can IM me in-world and you can ask away.

(I speak only for myself. Everyone is different.)

vbmenu_register("postmenu_735798", true); Nala Galatea

You say the exact thing my friends say and what I have observed. I just wanted to post it to kinda open the eyes of others as many that do stay as thier RL gender never realize the differences and such. I personally think everyone should play a opposite gender and a neutral (herm/she-male) at least once in thier life so that they can see the HUGE difference in how some are treated.

P.S. Chun-Li rocks!

Make a choice, all of the above isn't an option. Your roleplaying may be just as important as honesty and other qualities are to others who choose to be an extension of themselves. Protecting your role is understandable and should not be outed by anyone else. However, you should make reference to people you play online with, not to relationships and friends.

all good, fascinating stuff... sorry i've been absent lately - working two jobs, catching up on finances, etc etc... hoping to soon afford a new sl-capable machine again...

you might already know me as a 'self-outed' male-playing-fem. and though, i must say, a sense of 'fun' is lost on the self-reflective discussion of the playing of a character... with sl being such a community - we're not playing against computer-driven npc's; each one of us is a living, breathing human being - it seems something to talk about and consider.

yep, the reasons why are many, and it would take a real sociology study of the whole scene to break that down (and one whole psychologist of my own, lol . otherwise, i think this thread is focusing on contemplating the effects: heartbreak/disappoint/'dude, that's real effin' -weird-'

(my wm would like to share the comic attached - pardon the very rough sketch form; never got it polished into a final comic. Not all that work-friendly, but hope you get a kick outta it the caption, if you can't read it, says "alt.title: Atom Egoyan draws a comic"

well, heartbreak is always going to be a part of the human condition, so not that i think it can be 100% prevented... however, i decided 1) in my sl '1st life' profile to provide a 'full disclosure' statement, and 2) to make a point of checking out any interesting folks' profiles completely, before making too much conversation, and 3) making sure my new friend has read my prof and understands who i am, before engaging too far into any sort of situation where suddenly the 'emotional stakes' are higher for such a discovery to be made.

(and since i've not been able to get in-world, i'd started spending much time hanging out and about in the forums, which, if i understand right, means that in-worlders cannot review my profile... at a certain point, i began writing a bit more openly about my '1st life' in-forum, because i wanted to have the same amount of 'available disclosure' available here, as i did in-world. (ny wm: 'i'm just a boy whose intentions are good... oh lord, please don' let me be misunderstood...'

if there is one real honest-to-goodness 'game' goin' on 'round here, it's called 'relationships', just like life... whereever people congregate, bonds are formed. sl, while freeing us from our own constraints, also can sometimes remind us, and surprise us, of our real-life (and often knee-jerk preconceptions.

could ramble on much longer, like i usually do, lol!! but i don't wanna hog this conversation... besides, have much house-cleaning to do. write on; check y'all back later!!

p.s. lol, also agree to disagree with the 'rl discussion reduces chances of cyber to zero' statement... even with my all-too-brief time inside... hell, it actually made it very, very... hot. for cyber, that is.

:::hrug:::: Kendra is out and proud as being transgendered --and so is her player.

Two things from this:

I've always realized there are those who take SL to be a reflection of their real lives and don't have any desire to live as someone else and expect others to be the same way. (My girlfriend is one of these people.) Honestly, it's something we fight about more often than I'd like. The point is that it's foolish of either side of the equation to assume that another person plays by their set of rules.

Just because the relationships and friends are online does not make the feelings associated with them any less real.

I'm still a lot more understanding of your wishes and feelings than most would be, love. And be fair, the fights have lessened in occurence and intensity.

And I don't "expect" others to be the same way, Nala. That statement is a tad hurtful.

What I find interesting in all of this is that the topic continues to come up, and generally be discussed, in terms of ethics, right vs wrong etc.

What I dont remember seeing is similar conversations about the RL male who plays a buffed up male avie ... with an appearance of about 20 ... and /hair/ ... (and all the other variants on truth and reality ... )

How come the ethics of that dont get raked out once in a while? I find it quite amazing the way we pick and choose which discussions to have. Where is the role of honesty in those situations?

I think we should have to send in a RL picture and the results of an extensive personality profile that a Linden Lackey can translate into a RL-exact replica SL Avie. The Linden Personality Police would, of course, be required to make sure we are living our SLives by the previously mentioned personality profile.

This is the One True Way.

I have to admit I've just crossposted this from a thread where I just promised I wouldn't. But somehow it seems more relavent here.

I think it all comes down to expectations, assumptions and a lack of communications thereof.

My avie is very often a squirrel. Or a mech. Or a cyborg. Or a female. Or a male. Or... whatever avatar I'm playing with at the time. It's an avatar. A shell. How can you make any assumption or have any expectations of me? Why on earth would you assume that I'm anything remotely like my avatar?

Is physically representing yourself as something other than what you are behind the keyboard wrong? Isn't part of the point of SL to live a Second Life - as something else if you want. No! I don't remember it saying it had to be a carbon copy of your first life... but that's one opinion. Mine.

What is a fact - as is evident from these forums - and at the root of the problem is that what you believe is morally or ethically right or wrong isn't where other people draw those lines. You have to communicate to know where those lines fall in a friendship.

Evidently representing yourself as something other than what you really are IS wrong to some. I've read elsewhere here just now an opinion that people should ethically disclose in their profile if their avatar gender is not the same as their real life genders. I've heard people say before that this disclosure should be mandatory. I've read previously people say here that it shouldnt even be ALLOWED. That you shouldn't even have the choice of gender and that it should be dictated by your real life gender. And these kind of views stagger me, and because they are nowhere near where I draw the line I wouldn't even *think* when talking to someone that I might be offending them, or that they could possibly consider me dishonest for not immediately disclosing any differences between my inworld and rl selves.

To me, it's only dishonest to lie. To lie you have to be asked. You might well disagree with this statement! It's one opinion. Mine. But in giving it, and if you disagree, I'm proving my point... we all have different standards. Don't assume everyone you meet is adhering to yours!

So if in doubt, if it matters...ask! Of course, once again, depending on where their opinion lies depends on whether thats any of your business at all

But then if you're the kind of person that this matters to, then you probably aren't destined to be friends anyway!

You can't help other people's assumptions, whether that be that you are what you look like or that you hold even remotely similar views.

In other words, if you think that people should disclose everything about themselves before they can become your friend, then you better interrogate them beforehand, because you simply can't expect them to know that they're suddenly going to become disgusting, shocking and abhorrent to you later on through some seemingly innocent disclosure! If you're going to have mad sexxorz with that hawt girl, as someone said elsewhere, and find out that it's a guy, and you're the kind of person that is going to think you were just turned gay by an act of cybersex, then by god you better ask that hawt girl first because she might equally be of the opinion that if you didn't ask then you didn't damn well care!

Don't even assume that the person you are talking to knows WHO you are talking to... they might be a roleplayer who does not even associate their real life self with this entity you're talking to. You may only be able to talk to their avatars character in SL! I've seen this myself.

We are not all the same! Don't assume anything! Communication is key, people!


I'll shut the fuck up now.

I personally don't care what sex the person is behind the AV, except if the relationship seems to be headed toward an intimate encounter or romance. Then I would like the truth, one way or the other. Although I would hope that anyone that considers me a close friend would feel conmfortable telling me just about anything.

I generally treat folks like the sex of their AVs, even if I know it's a guy behind the girl AV, I will still treat him/her as a woman. And I do interact differently with the different sexes, even if just in small ways.

To me, SL represents many things, but near the top of the list is the ability to be anything you can imagine. Imagination, or the avenue to explore fantasies or dreams or desires in a safe environment is a wonderful thing. If you can think it up, you can be it within SL, and I whole-heartedly support folks right to do so. But you should not harm another in your pursuit of such.