The Temp-on-Rezzer Test

Yeah, if only what she said had anything to do with the situation at hand.

Agreed here to. I don't think they -should- be advertised as "freedom from prim restrictins". More of a shifting of resources. I'm not sure how else to detail it other than what I described previously. Sorry.

Going over a prim limit by hundreds is not what I envision this for. Except maybe on a temporary basis, but even then, I'd rather not go that high. Even the fast de-rezzing of bullets for weapons can cause lag for the time they are there. (not debasing weapons, just stating). I would imagine that this -could- be used in such a fashion on an island sim who's owner wishes to do so reguardless of the lag and sim-degragation IF (and only IF) that would be the only sim on the server. Most forget that there are 4 (or more?) sims per server.

Persons who do this are going to attract attention quickly though. The only real reason to abuse it would be lack of land size to provide the prims wanted, and (usually) this means a residential area divided up into many small plots. Neighbors will see the degregation and report it. Hopefully after trying to speak with the offender first. New residents might see it for sale, and not understand the implications, as has been stated.

This is minor though. No more troublesome than newcommers who use weapons before being told about regulations. Most (and I do say only most) will see what's going on if explained nicely to them. The other few are the ones that need reported. Even residents taht have been here for years might not have the tech background to understand, but a little patience might clear it up for them.

All I would really advocate is that patience. Or, if persons lack that patience, to let those who have it deal with it instead of blowing it all out of proportion. Only one or two might be ARing on sight, but think how a new resident would feel being ARed for something they didn't understand was hurting the community. It may turn them from SL completely and we may lose someone who would be of great benifit someday.

I merely spoke for proper use of ToR's, stating that I believed that the complete removal of them was unfounded, and was called a "cheat", an "abuser", and a "thief". And yes, I got upset over that. I'm not sure many would not.

I believe the only way to help with this for the community is education. As we explain the use of weapons, push, particles, scripts, other lag-inducing things, and many others. Yes, you can AR them for it, but *shrugs*. I'll be a bit nicer, thank you. AR's are reserved for those times when there is truely no other recourse.

As for using the ToR for a perm structure; While I wouldn't suggest it for many things, I can think of a few in which it could be used responsibly. Careful watching of sim resources would be needed amoung other issues. Yes, it does impact performance. Any script does. Any landowner should be watching sim performance whenever they put out ANYTHING. Even simple objects (rezzed perm, not even ToR) can lag and cause sim degragation. Scripts build up fast as well if poorly written, and we have a HOST of poorly written ones out there.

There is no one thing that can be removed or added that will ensure sim performance.

Except knowledge.

And the only way a lot will know that knowledge is to tell them. Not beat them for not having that knowledge.

Oh, and Reitsuki? I do read your posts and I dosee your side. A lot of what you have said has helped me with ToR's and finding ways to use them without impacting sim performance. For that, I thank you. We'll probablyy never agree on ToR usage, and that's fine, but I am glad to hear you use ARs responibly. Your posts sounded like you use them otherwise and much too quickly. I appollogise if I misread that.

You would advocate stopping use of ToRs period. I prefer to educate so they are used responibly. Which would work better? Only time will tell I guess. If you see another option, let me know. I'd not see that portion of the LSL removed for it does have many uses. I think that is what you were getting at as well.

~Jessy

Alright... I'm gonna duck out of this thread again pretty soon, but I just wanted to point out a few more things:



The thing is, I don't think that it is so minor. There are a lot of people in this thread and others who truly don't see any problem with using this technique to circumvent prim limits. It's not (always) because they're evil or callous, it's often because they just don't know any better. If you're non-technical, the rules of the world are just there at face value, and you don't necessarily have the perspective to understand or even really care about the reasons why. Prim limits are prim limits. Something that lets people get around them probably seems like a good idea. It'd take a pretty massive education campaign to counteract that kind of opinion. I sure don't have the time, nor do I think I should have to do that kind of education, because I'm not the one selling these products.

I have a feeling that scripters, just like programmers in the real world, have an obligation to follow a code of ethics while we work. Think about those lights and flashy things for clubs that change colors and textures and positions and rotations as fast as they possibly can. Those are hard on a sim as well (and on clients, too), but think about the club owner who really isn't technical and doesn't necessarily understand how the system works. They won't know that this product they bought that looks really cool actually puts a fair amount of load on the server. They especially won't know how to tell the difference between one that uses llSetTextureAnim() and llTargetOmega() (for low server load) as opposed to one that uses llSetColor() and llSetRot() (for high server load).

That means that scripters have an obligation to consider the use of their products and the effects on the sims before they sell them. We're the technical ones. If I sell a laggy object like this, I'm directly responsible for all of the lag caused by people using the product that don't know any better and don't have the information to evaluate something like this for themselves. Unlike a sim nuke, in a lot of cases, products can seem perfectly innocuous to a nontechnical user and yet be horrible on a sim.

That's why it makes sense for us to be noisy in the forums, trying to combat these things at the source. If we can get the main advocates and the scripters to realize what kind of load they'll be causing, maybe we can get them to take their product off the market.

I know you're advocating the responsible use of re-rezzing temp-on-rez systems, and I know you've described ways you use them but still stay within your prim allocation, even counting temp-on-rez-prims... but I have to admit I don't fully understand. If you're staying within your limits, then you're only wasting one more prim on the rezzing system itself. May as well just use permanent prims. It seems like any non-contrived use of this system is going to be to circumvent prim limits.

One last thing -- I don't think anyone is advocating getting rid of temp-on-rez itself. I use temp prims all the time, for temporary effects.

That makes complete sense. I'm all for anything being sold to have any and all information about laod, use, limits etc. And for makers to take responsibility of thier product. I won't even limit that to scripts since, as I've stated, I've seen not scritped things that cause lag.

Perhaps a coverall could be used here. One that encompases not only ToRs but anything else now and into the furture. I see info like you suggest on Security Systems for sale (well most). Something like that should be added to the ToRs if they wish to sell them. Example Such and such causes lag and may get you banned. Suggested uses are.... and so forth.

The problem there is the need for somene to over see that this gets done. With the complete open market, I'm at a lose as to how. I've never used the SL Exchange myself. Are they looking at the things put up, or just putting them up no matter what? And in-world wil be more difficult.

I mean, it does come down closer to weapons and security systems and such for this usage. There's no real way to regulate it, so the best that can be done is for the community at large to watch. And yes, AR when needed. *shrugs* I'll backpedal gladly on that, but I still hold that ARs need to be done responsibly. Just going "OMG! A ToR!! AR AR AR!!" is...well...stupid. As is putting up ToR's to build 10 times what you're allowed.

My useage is more that I'm lazy, and I'll admit that. I could take down perm prims to rez others while I'm building. I use ToRs so I can leave it up and only have over the allotment temporaryily while I build. If worst comes to worst (ie, I notice sim degragation, lag, or neighbors complain) then I'll take them down and do the longer method of picking up stuff, then building, then picking up the build, then putting my regular stuff back out. As I have it, I only build, then pick up my build.

One thought, and this is for those in this discussing that have been in SL for a time, would a "Reference Library" make sense for LL to put into the Library of our inventory? To contain not only information on how to do things, but other Rules and Regulations that come up. Such as ToR usage, weapon usage, secuity system usage, etc, etc. I think it would make sense, but it might have been ried before with no success.

Ideas/comments? If it starts to make another train of discussion, I'll open another thread for it.

~Jessy

It's a nice idea that we could require all content creators to issue some kind of "lag statement", but it's not really possible to mandate responsibility. That'd just mean that those of us who actually care about how much lag our products make would end up having to write more, and people who don't will just continue to release their products without caring about the lag, ignoring the new rule.



Right. I think the feeling is that we can decide now that these things just aren't okay, then that makes it much easier to get rid of them when we find one: just AR and let LL deal with it. It's true that talking to neighbors is a good idea, and I often talk to my neighbors about lag... but then I end up as "that annoying lag-nazi woman", no matter how nice I am about it.



Ah, so you ARE going over your prim limits? If it's just for literally a few minutes, then I'd still say that's okay. But if you're doing this for a few hours... well, maybe that's not so okay with me anymore, if only just because the principle of it still seems like cheating to me. I know the 3 big sandboxes can be pretty rough sometimes, but there are plenty of other building areas... have you tried searching around for a peaceful one?



This could be a good idea. I mean, they already tell us when we're newbies all about how we can't use weapons except in damage-enabled areas, but it might be nice if the abuse team could distill some of their wisdom of experience into some general guidelines. I'm not sure the library is a good spot... perhaps in the help window which I hear will be revamped soon.

... Torey wrote about it, i think that clears out many discussed things.... and atm i cannot read here more then a flame..so stop it..

or we must call the abulance soon because of virtual blood.

With all due respect to Torley, who I consider a friend, Torley has cleared up *nothing* with either of her posts. Both were so vague as to be completely useless, yet not offend any one side. Which is Torley's job, but it's not particularly helpful in these cases.

I see no flaming going on here (anymore, and hardly before, by our standards), so...

>> Sarcasm << hope you are knowing that word...i'm only to lazy to write it everytime.

anyways its funny here ;p



And in my Eyes Torleys Stamement said :


not not allowed, i think it is a undesired thingy