The Temp-on-Rezzer Test

Linden gave us the posibility to script, linden gave us the posibility to use push... so whats wrong ?

You are the blind vocal few, in your own selfish little world here. We have tried to explain the long-term implications of this, you ignore it in favor of "well, right now not everyone is doing it" logic. That other things hurt sim performance, also, is non issue - Appeal to Common Practice is a logical fallacy.

Despite your grandious and mythic claims, certain things ARE set in stone in this world, relatively speaking. Your right - a script uses resources. A prim uses resources. So, as a logical extension of that, the more that you have of either, the more resources are used. Hence, a valid and justified reason to limit the amount of prims a person can use - except your advocating the belief that a system to circumvent that limit is fine.

Script A + Prim B is always going to be more resource intensive than Script A or Prim B on their own. Rezing prim B is always going to be more resource intensive than Prim B just existing, so by extension so is repeatedly rezzing prim B. At no point do you do some magical inversion and begin recovering resources.

Certainly other things uses resources - but again, that's appeal to common practice, and a bad one at that - those other things, by and large, and not attempting to circumvent restrictions the lindens have built into the system. We ARE trying to make the world better - by preventing people from misusing systems that have perfectly legitimate uses and getting them taken away. Your laughable cries of "advancing the system" have been rejected long ago - simple logic dictates that you can't improve the system by what you're doing. Even an elementry understanding of the concepts you are involving yourself with would tell you that.

I notice you conveniently ignore my point about stealing resources you have not paid for. You pay tier for a certain amount of land and its prim allocation. How can you morally justify helping yourself to more for free just because you don't feel like paying for it ?

Reitsuki has explained, yet again, why the the technical justification in your post is nonsensical.

It is not a grey zone. You pay so much tier you receive so many prims. This is clearly stated by Linden Labs. Again just because you can technically do something does not make it necesssarily right or even as it suits you to think, grey. You can't afford extra land ? Sorry you can't have the extra prims. I can't afford a fancy car, it doesn't give me the right to help myself to one just because I know how to hot wire one in the street.

As for waiting for Linden labs to declare it an exploit.... you are so morally deficient that you require somebody else to tell you right from wrong before you can behave in an acceptable way ?

We are privilaged to use SL in the way we do. No other environment entrusts its users with so much power to create. The objections raised here are not for the sake of limiting your power but to safeguard it for the future so such powers are not withdrawn on the basis of abuse and the time and effort required to enforce their acceptable use.

Here's an ethics question: I've created a small, slowly replicating plant that uses temp_on_rez seeds. Since the seeds die almost immediately if they are eaten by the bugs I've made, or germinate and disappear or just disappear (if they fail to germinate) I figured temp_on_rez was the way to go. And there are periods of inactivity for the plant during which no seeds are created, so I figured temp_on_rez would be ok. However, I'm now concerned this is somewhat unethical. What's the general opinion here?

What aspect of it would you be concerned is unethical ? No one's said temp rezzing is unethical.

My concern is that at a particular time, there is very small but finite probability of a large number of seeds being temprezzed. The likelihood of that happening is low, but this is a stochastic process, so I can't guarantee that the number will be small. I guess that's the issue.

Sounds like an interesting project and just what Temp on Rez is good at.

The discussion here is about using Temp on Rez to PERMANENTLY have an object present inWorld, bypassing restrictions put in place by LL. Using Temp on Rez to give the appearance that something is continuously present when in reality its flashing in and out of existence every minute or so. Using Temp on Rez to put a 250 prim house on a 512 plot that supports 117 prims. All of which are clearly wrong.

I would say use your own judgement, and I also agree with Jim. But your use seems a perfectly reasonable way to use temp on rez. If LL make a ruling on this it will be final. And don't allow your own judgement to be swayed by a bunch of moaning minnies.

Actually, you're suffering from the same problem. You're convinced that you're right, and you won't listen to reason no matter what tack people take to try to convince you to change your opinion on this. I think they'd let you go and keep your opinion, except that keeping it means that you'll be using re-rezzers and negatively affecting their in-world experience by lagging the regions they live in. So they feel compelled to challenge you to change your opinion, hoping to prevent their sims from excess lag in the future.

Please reconsider your opinion. The other side considers yours: of course everyone knows that getting more prims for free would be a good thing -- if there wasn't a catch. But you need to see their side, too: there is a catch, and they've done their best to explain this to you, but you refuse to listen. They've also explained why there is no way around this catch, but again, you won't believe them.

LL has made a ruling on it:



Drama llamas just tend to ignore LL's rulings if it doesn't feed their need for drama. But basicly what I highlighted in bold is the ruling itself. Unless its causing a visually noticable affect on the sim's performance its ok to use them. If there is a problem and the source is a ToR its recomended to talk to the owner first before you get all trigger happy on the AR button. If it is the source of the problem and they're not being reasonable, then AR is the way to go.

Now personally I agree that ToR a 250 prim house on a 512 lot is a bit on the extreme side and I would too AR them if they weren't being reasonable. Same thing if they're ToR a 100 prim chair because there are lower prim alternatives that look just as good or nicer. And if there's land near by for sale that they would be able to use all the time (whether its just for primspace or actual building) I recomend buying it if they plan to perminately rez a house that large. Besides, the way ToR is, ToR homes tend to blink out of existance more often due to their size and whenever there is an increased server load in the sim.

Now there are a few cases I can understand. Even before the ToR systems came out I sometimes had problems using all the prim space on my land. I would reach 107 prims and I tried to rez something under 10 prims and I would get "Parcel is Full" errors. Now there are alot of people who this happens to and as a result they cant put out everything they wanted that was within their limit they paid for. In this case I could advocate using one or two ToR boxes assuming their timers go off at different times and they were rezzing non scripted items because I know I was PO'd I couldn't use the land I paid for to its full extent wich felt like I was being forced to buy more land in excess of what I needed.

If anyone uses a ToR I recomend you only rez non-scripted/script stripped/low lag scripted objects, avoid the giant ToR house idea, if you wanna use multipul rezzers set them on different timers or rez them at different times to avoid adding to the script time used during rez's to reduce lag spike potential. If you need to use them, try to keep it as low lag as possible.

Thank you Ron for showing us the company's opinion. I think the point a few here should read again is "A friendly word can go a long way to the owner". But then again it is a lot easier just to press the AR button and 'cut them no slack'.

Stealing sim resources is theft. I cut theives no slack.

No, that is not a correct paraphrase of what torley said. Torley said that if the statistics panel shows a noticeable drop in performance, then it's not okay. Torley did not say that if there is not a noticeable drop in statistics then it is okay. There's an important difference there.

You just want to play the superhero vigilante!

No actually it is. Because she says to check the sim stats if you see a performance degration. In other words, you see a lag spike check the stats.

Notice how this:


comes before this:


in Torely's post.

Sims will throttle scripts to prevent lag, anomalies such as spikes occure during severe load when the sim can't throttle it back enough. If the sim isn't showing any visiable signs of performance degration it won't show anomalies in the stats such as script time increasement unless its a new sim or empty sandbox with hardly anything inside it.

My point is that, the way Torley phrased that, these devices might still be declared against the rules, even if no obvious change in stats is noticed. "A implies B" does not mean that "not A implies not B". I think Torley was very careful not to make any kind of definitive ruling one way or another aside from giving one example of a way that these things would obviously break the rules.

Last time I played a tabeltop superhero rpg (heroes unlimited) I did.

Probably would in city of heros too.

Actually, no.

What I have stated is that there are other options of use for ToR's and ARing things you don't have full knowledge of can be harrasement in it's own right.

I have continuously stated that rezzing mass numbers of prims is a bad thing. As is going over your prim limit by using this. As is even staying in your prim limit with objects that are just bad to ToR. Such as certain textures, shapes, or scripted items.

I personally use ToR's to keep my prim level well below my allotment. The number of prims, both permanent and temporary, are still within my land allotment. So I am not "stealing" any prims, or performance, from the sim.

What I do have ToRed -is-, in effect, permanent. The reasoning for this is so I can build on my land in peace instead of the clutter of the sandboxes. While others do not agree with this, I look at the permenant prims I'm building with as "temporary" ones as I'll be taking them down when I'm finished with my work. Daily if not within a few minutes or hours. I'm simply shifting the resources allowed from perm-temp prims in a differnt mannor. So you may see a TEMPORARY number of prims(if you add temp and perm together) go over my allotment, but not in the long term. Temporary. As in Temp On Rez. As in, for a limited time frame. This allows me to build without having to take down, and replace things I normally wish to have out.

I constantly check the sim status. I do not want to drop the resouces of anyone else and strive to make it so. I have removed certain ToR's due to lag on several occations. Note I did not say a drop in sim performance. Simply lag. I won't even allow lag to build, let alone sim degragation.

I know many who use ToRs and all I interact with are as responsible. Who wants thier own sim to be laggy or have serious degregation? That there may be those who abuse it is inevitanble. Same as some may script everything and anything on thier land (where there is NO restriction on the number of scripts evne though I've found they cause more problems than prim numbers).

I -have- looked at both sides. Yes, there is a danger in abuse with ToRs. I would say on the same level as Push, poor scripting, and a host of other things. I feel the benifits outwiegh the risk. Whatever others may say about it not gaining anything, I have found a few avenues of prospective advancements. Not cheating the system, but making it better. Not by overusing ToRs to gain mega-prims per sq m, but to study the effects and find why and how they are affecting the sim. Not just prims, but the script+prim in different combinations.

What others will not see, or will not admit to, is that there is a reasonable use here. I have tried to communicate and talk to others. It seems I can not as their abuse drove me to wrte the post above and vent. My appollogies for that.

I'm done with that. Nay say all you like. I'll continue to work within the rules and with those that wish to find other ways and to look at all sides. I leave you to yours.

Good day,
~Jessy

You again make a mistake - it's not a case of admitting it, or not seeing it.

What, you've been following this debate and weren't already aware of it?



I'm friendly when it's warrented. Torley is a saint compared to most people. I have neither the desire nor the patience to be a Linden - I'm not going to leave offline IMs, then conduct periodic checks to see if they listened to me. Not my job. I'll inform the people who's job it is to sort such things out.

So please tell me how you see both sides?

From all I've seen, you only advocate complete removal of the rezzers. Which, we all know, is never going to happen now that they are in the open market. So your position is one that is not going to happen. Rezzers will not be banned for individuals missusing anymore than weapons will be. (Yes. My opinion of how LL will do things, but based on thier past actions concerning like issues.)

Could you possibly add something contructive instead of simply ripping apart pieces of other persons posts?

Rezzers can cause bad things to happen. YES! OKAY I AGREE WITH YOU!!!! Got it?

But THEY ARE HERE! And as much as you may complain and sa they shouldn't be and that there's no grey area, they are legal to use if used responsibly. Same as push, weapons and LSL coding in and of itself.

ARing anyone using a rezzer without seeing if they are actually abusing the system, is the same as ARing anyone carrying a weapon without seeing if they missuse it first. Such actions are hostile, petty, and show a complete lack of respect for fellow residents.

ARing ANYONE, for ANYTHING that doesn't immeadiately affect you, or shows an immeadiate detrimental effect to SL in general is the same. Not just againt rezzers. I do hope LL takes action againt those who "cry wolf" or even go so far as to send in false reports.

If you can't spare time from your schedual to take five minutes to send an IM, or actually find out what is happening, I'd suggest IMing Live Help instead of sending an AR. While I hear people complain about LH inworld and on the forums, I have always recieved prompt assistance from either a represenative, or from a Linden directly. If sim performance is being degragated from anything (not just rezzers), I'm sure they would be as concerned to look into it as you would be. After all, fixing that problem will probably save them a couple dozen IM's in the future for related issues.

There are more tools in SL than the AR button.

~Jessy

I said SEE both sides. Not AGREE WITH both sides. That's the mistake you keep making.

Yes. I advocate complete removal. No, lindens wont do it, but there is the possibility they will come out with a stronger ruling against them, which is what I 'm working for - and there IS precedent for LL attempting to limit potential abuse of a system by making changes that negativly impact other people. The current travesty known as the grey goo fence comes to mind.

I absolutely SEE where the selfish, "I'm entitled to more than I deserve, I should be able to re-define the rules as convienient to me" mentality comes from. I do not, and never will, AGREE with the mentality.



I've added the only constructive statement that needs to be said: Stop using them before LL screws the rest of us because of you and others like you.

As for ripping apart pieces of other posts - maybe if the posts weren't emotion-laden needless verbosity and borderline personal attacks for (gasp) daring to have a differeing view than you, I just might stop.



Actually, we've yet to get a ruling on their exact legality - if you read Torley's post, there really isnt any ruling at all on the use that's being discussed here.

I'm not advocating banning the LSL - that's moronic to even think about, and impossible besides. I'm suggesting banning using them in this manner, much as sim-nukes are ALWAYS banned. Sim nukes are already here too, but nobody is saying we should try to find ways they can be used "properly".



Not at all - because by virtue of the way the ToR is used, it can be seen if it is abusing the system or not. Is it ignoring the T in ToR? If so, it's abuse. If not, it's fine.

Hostile? See if I give a damn. Lack of respect? Likewise - respect is earned, not given, and anyone who does this has failed to earn my respect. Petty? Not if you understand what the word means.



Except that I've never sent in a single false report in my life. Happy hunting for another way to get me in trouble.

I rarely use AR, truthfully, even when it does impact me. This case is special. Feel honored.



It's not my job to IM them - and it's not just the IM, its the followup IMs, and followup checks to see if they have responded, and such. Not my job, and I am sure as hell not going to volenteer for that.

As for live help - no. That's not live help's job, it's not their jurisdiction, and it would be an abuse of an over-worked system.

I am Live Help.



Yeah, but there is also the AR button.

Well, interesting. What you've said differs a lot from what I was reading into what you were saying before...



Remember that only one or two people are actually advocating running around the grid and ARing every single one of these we can find. I, for one, would rather cut this off at the source instead.



Okay... I still don't quite understand what you're doing. It sounds like you're using a bunch of these things on your land to build structures out of temp prims, but the total number of temp and permanent prims is still under your allocation. As one person in this thread already said, if you take one structure as ToR-rerezzing and the same structure rezzed permanently, the re-rezzing one will always generate more strain on the server. It only makes sense; there's more for the server to do. It'd be best if you used as many "perm-rezzed" objects as possible, simply to reduce unnecessary load on the server.

I don't specifically see that much wrong with you using this as a tool as you've described, because a) you're there, and b) as you said, it's temporary. As long as you're always cleaning this stuff up when you're done, my opinion is that it's okay. I feel that it's okay to put a temporary increase in load on the server, especially if you're there to enjoy it, so long as, of course, the load isn't enough to severely affect the sim. That's why holovendors are okay: it's just a temporary thing for a few minutes.

I don't think anyone is saying that ALL uses of ToR are bad. The big problem is keeping structures permanently rezzed using ToR prims, and especially (but not only) when doing that brings you over your prim limits. That's what this thread is all about. No one's telling you never to use ToR prims.



Agreed, on both counts. The thing is, with such an easy-to-use, mass-marketed tool like this that advertises a golden carrot of "freedom from prim restrictions", it seems to me that a lot of people who don't know the downside will use these things to circumvent their prim limits with "permanent" structures. They won't know any better because this isn't (yet) strictly against the rules, and no one's told them what's wrong with it. That's another reason people are being so vehement in this thread.

If only you really did feel it was not your job! Yep Torley sounds nice and reasonable and since she works for the company I'm happy! Thank goodness you don't! Happy AR clicking!