Taking the fun out of designing

I admit i did not read every post in this thread. Sorry. but here is my 2 cents about this.

In short, I agree with cristiano. The market exists in every merchant oriented environment. Every merchant learns what they can and cannot sell for and adjusts their prices to match or they die in the poorhouse with lots of their own creations that no one will buy because they can get something similar elsewhere for cheaper. Now of course if your product is clearly superior you can demand higher prices and get them from the 5% of the population who can afford them (upper class). The rest of the world will marvel and merely wish they could get the "LeetCorp Inc" version but will be content to bitch and moan about their "Cheapo Designs" version of said item. I would like an alienware computer, I have a NoName....


Ok thats my opinion on the actual thread.... here is my idea i have been rolling around with for awhile that is only vaguely related .....

I would love to see some sort of market analysis stats for SL. I dont even know if it would be possible in SL or just an overwhelming undertaking. Basically its just like the real world... what i mean by market stats is not stock exchange or Lindex values... i mean like a consumer reports type periodical in SL. I personally love M2. Maybe they should add a section on Trends In Content Pricing (as well as anomolies)... just a thought.. would love a good place to go when pricing my items.. funny i spend more time sitting on one plot of land making and playing than i do exploring... perhaps i should get out more... i dunno... just a thought..


Insanity...Fun For The Whole Family,
Neurosis

Well if time spent on a product is more than just free time isn't that worth something and what about cost to run a business? Oh where's customer service too? Material costs, yup all of the downloads to put up a product. That would include all of the textures, and then the photos for the boxes. How about payment for tier and rentals. Classifieds possibly. Plenty of costs to just run a business I think.

It really bothers me when someone says the value of a virtual thing is 0.

thats like saying the internet as a whole has a net value of $0

Abstract Items Can hold Concrete Value. The Heaps Of Cash invested into Secondlife is proof of that.

Welcome to the real world where nothing is worth more than what people are willing to pay for it.

It doesn't matter how much time you put into it or how much money invested, if no one wants it, it's worth nothing.

The operative word is "Can". Yes, they can hold value; doesn't mean that they will.

I agree with all above statements.

The one I don't agree with is the one stating that something is worth nothing because its virtual.

That's true, the difference between a Honda and a Jaguar is virtual. But people are willing to pay for it.

Threads like this absolutely baffle me where as not only have I scoured these forums and the inworld community as far as market trends but other art guilds online as well as services like RntimeDNA, Bryce, Poser, 3DNA, the list goes on.

To put it simply if you goto ANY other venue that offers creative wares online they are goingto charge you for 1. Time. 2. Design 3. Research 4.Overhead on cost of materilas to create the item(s) 5. Server and Host fees 6. Licensing 7. Any legal cost that may apply . The list goes on. Passion in Pricing.

All prices are valid asto what the creator sets them to in thier own respect and effort. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to use SL as a source of any amount income if that is your desire. My cashouts help pay for advertising (McDonald's spends approx $200,000,000.00 a year if not more in advertising alone and you dont see them handing out free burgers now do you?) as well as my hosting fees among other things.

It is always appriciated when creators offer a 'Mass Resonable' (cheap or free ) item so that that many may partake in the joy of it, but it isn't necessary.

I have never been of the opinion that anyone owed me a free handout or super low prices (25 -100L for example) I'm just as willing to pay out 1200L for an item should the creator feel thier item is worth such, and only they would know what went into making it.

Hell I can't even tip a decent amount anymore or make large donations when I want to, to automated systems due to ppls 'automated pride' at times. yes ppl have turned down 10000L donations from me, to help thier dream ( good god ppl dont look a gift horse in the mouth!).

So charge what you will and charge what you want, it's YOUR BUSINESS quite frankly.

This thread and the discussion it deals with already exists. One thumb down for making another whole thread out of something that should have just been a reply. No more, please. It's taking the fun out of browsing the forums.

Yes, but the point is that as a result the vast majority of people do not buy art. Someone buying some clothing or a skin on SL is "in fact" buying a piece of artwork, but the value in their perception is not the same. All they're doing is getting their avatar to look a certain way, with the (sometimes painful!) knowledge that they're really just looking similar to someone else. The flexibility available is much less, and the stated advantage of the SL system to consumers ("variety of content available" is negated because that variety is cancelled out by the need to spend money individually on every item.



There is nothing wrong with it but (as people seem to love to say!) it is not an entitlement. Yes, unfortunately, you are not automatically entitled to money for your hard work - else you would be able to complain or sue somebody if a product that you worked hard on turned out to be a failure. You are entitled to money only as far as other people are prepared to pay you and that includes all those other people's failings, bad attitudes, jealousy, etc. We'd probably have a far better market if companies got to send all their customers to a psychiatrist who'd explain why it was actually a great thing for them to give money to the company, but it doesn't work that way!



What you spend your cashouts on is your own business. The point however is that people don't buy from McDonald's because they want McD's to be able to cash out for their advertising. They buy from McDonald's because they like their burgers. If advertising got more expensive, and McD's increased their prices, the buyers would not be doing anything wrong by going to Burger King or Subway instead.



That's because, as a cashing-out creator, you have enough L$ to do that. But consumer users can and will pinch their pennies. And they'll do that even more when they have to pay US$ for every one.

Notice how SL closely follows RL? LMAO. Thats the way it goes! Competion fair or unfair, knock off brands...well built items and shabby. All of it fits into what the consumer buys. Eventually, the people of SL decides who makes it and who doesnt. As for me, I build cause after a long day I like to sit down and build, it relaxes me. Its great I earn a penny or two I build and try to set a fair price for newbies on Low Prim items while still offering lots of other items for the more fortunate primmed folks. Anyways, I think the post is a hoot! LOL have fun in game all.

Money Money Money
Greed Greed Greed

I guess SL is all about the Benjamins anymore. I for one won't ever visit your store just on principle because of your post, and I do quite a bit of shopping. I am making things for my new store and I have been told by several people that I am undercutting myself because of the low cost. I am not selling to be rich, If I can get enough for upload fees and to do some shopping then I am Happy. I fully understand if someone is unable to work irl and needs to rely on SL as their income but we know that isn't everyone.

Maybe people should take a step back and not be so money hungry and think about what SL should be about. It should be about the people, friends you have, ability to do what you may not be able to irl, to be able to build something and say Hey I made that. SL has so much more to offer and personally I'm getting sick and tired of the $ talk

Problem with your viewpoint is, that is a ONE TIME COST.

GM makes a cars...they pay materials (paint, etc) for EACH CAR.

You pay texturing ONE TIME for the master unit and ONE TIME for the master box. Yes, you may upload 2-3 tries before you like it, what I mean is that after you complete the final box and the final texturing, your materials cost per sale is indeed 0, there are NO upload fees for box #2 - infinity...

Plus, unlike SL, prices NEVER seem to drop on old models...that is, the SECOND a new model arrives all the old ones just magically disappear from stores (unlike RL where they get discounted to move) so you never have to lower the price.

Virtual merchants got it easy. And folks like the OP want it even easier by overcharging and then blaming the folks that don't. Not everyone WANTS to be a gucchi, some want to be store brands and do volume.

Me, I prefer volume pricing to 'names'...I have only once bought something because of the ingame designer's name (hello to Vindi Vindaloo), but then again RL the 'name' doesn't matter to me.

Sadly, no one has infinite time. You're not paying for materials. You're paying for expertise, creativity and imagination. Those don't come cheap, folks.

Not mine, anyway.

If I wasn't in SL, I would be in WoW or EQ2 or AO....so the time is effectively free for me. Creativity? Eh, I build to make myself happy....and price just for spending money. If it sells, great...if not, great. SL building is hardly 'art' on the par with artists in galleries...hell, its barely basic modelling compared to 3D games.

And, unlike OP, the pricing or what others sell in no way diminishes my enjoyment of building.

Yes but isn't the point of SL that everyone should have them..?

Everyone does. Marketing them and having them are two very different things. More than that, I can never hope to excel at everything. That's why the painter patronizes the musician who patronizes the sculpter who patronizes the photographer. Infinite variety of specialty.

Don't waste time with another of your fatalistic responses about why we should all kill ourselves because everyone else got here first or anything. Just... don't. I get it.

Don't worry, I'm not going to.

The point though is that if everyone feels they have creativity/imagination etc., then they may think they're not so willing to pay for yours - because after all, they're not getting any money for theirs.

Now of course your point about marketing is true but the reason why they're not getting any money for theirs doesn't matter.

Isn't it amazing how some people are too dense to know satire when they see it? LMAO!!!

FYI ZsuZsanna: I don't have a store, I don't make or sell anything in SL. This entire thread was satire meant point out the flip side of another thread where someone was basically saying that they wanted people to give them stuff pretty much for free. Personally I could give a crap what you sell your items for.

Ah, the age old clash between people who design because they like to, and the people who design because they want to make some money.

For me... I like both.

I love building/scripting... and I love making money. As of yet, I haven't cashed any of it out... but I eventually will. I try to price my items for what I think they are worth, and I won't undercut someone... I will *gasp* try to make my product better than the other person to justify my price.

I usually find myself hesitant to buy things priced way below the average price... I find myself wondering... "what's wrong with it? you get what you pay for, afterall". I've been in sales for 13 years, and if there is one thing that I have learned... it is perceived value.

If it's priced cheap, it probably is cheap.

Excuse me but I didn't read whatever thread you are referring to and I just assumed this was a thread based on what you were doing and wanted others to do. Lord forbid I would think it was a real post and not the same old joke with a new topic. Maybe you should keep your crap in the sandbox where it belongs instead of getting people riled up with a trolling thread topic. Real classy...

Actually, they do. They buy what they can afford, and "art" is a relative term. The kind of art or creativity most people pay for mainly falls under the catatgory of design, such as clothing, furniture, cars and homes etc. People buy the designs that they a) enjoy and b) can afford.

If people didn't care about their surroundings, and whether they were pleasant and beautiful, we would all be living in wood shacks with the same ugly, utilitarian furniture. We would all be wearing the same bland utilitarian clothing.

Everything in your home was bought not just for utility, but also because it was aesthetically pleasing to you. Creativity isn't only expressed by creating something, it is the ability to appreciate and be inspired by the creativity of others.

I cannot afford world class art, but when I can I buy everything from japanese ceramics to posters of art for my apartment because they are beautiful and I enjoy looking at them and being surrounded by beautiful things. They also inspire my own creativity.

It seems to me that you do not understand or appreciate artistic expression or value those who create, or are simply jealous of those who do have those gifts.

I am a a RL designer. I also have fine art training. When I was young, however, I dreamed of becoming a novelist. Sadly, I learned that I couldn't write a decent story to save my life, heh. From your perspective, I suppose I should never read another novel, because I don't have that gift myself, or think they should give me their work for free, lol.

Honestly, no one who creates and sells their work for in SL could ever be described as anything remotely close to "greedy". I can truly appreciate the time and talent and hard work that went into creating the amazing variety of clothing and objects and skins and such and what I have paid for them is practically for free, given the effort involved. You simply don't appreciate what those skills and time are worth in real world dollars. You are getting for pennies what could honestly be charged for $25 and up given the work. If all they were interested in was money, they could easily take the skills they have outside of SL and charge REAL value for them. Instead you are getting it for next to nothing and complain.

Edit to add, this isn't just a reply to Yumi's post in this thread, but others of her's that I have read, lurking here.

Sorry to bother you, but in my original post all the spending you mention are included in "overhead".

That's why it is such a tremendous value, really. They could easily charge much, much more.

"Virtual stuff" isn't real? I guess the money I charge for the websites I design and those willing to pay for something they can "never touch" isn't real, either. I guess the money you pay to access the internet, which is ALL virtual, is deluded as well?

Color me confused.

God bless you for understanding so quickly. People who've spent years here still don't understand this.

It's not *quite* as dire as all that for those of us plying our trade here for cash, though. Speaking from personal experience, I can work my ass off for (literally) months, have some solid output, then just take a break for months after that. The margin made for each sale in SL isn't enormous when compared against the RL market value for each hour of my professional life, but the overall volume of sales is enough to make it worth it.

It's actually a pretty sweet deal. I do 15+ hours a week of product development for three months, have a great time doing it, sharpen my skills, then just collect the cash for a few months after that, making incremental improvements along the way.

It's a model I like a whole lot. I guess I would liken it to product development in the consumer electronics or software development space, where most of the effort happens up front with the payoff hitting much later.

I don't know how the clothes people do it and stay sane -- I'm blown away by the amount of effort it takes to maintain the sheer production volume to stay successful in that trade. Especially if you're interested in quality. It's much less of a time gamble -- you can quickly see, I'm sure, what's working and what isn't.