Security Systems

That's the point I've been trying to make - sure, there are some idiots who will grief you, and you have every right, when attacked, to retaliate. I have no objection to that whatsoever.

It's being classed in the same category as a griefer when I am completely innocent and blameless passing by, that I find offensive.

Lewis

Too bad you're wrong.

Good for me though.

They don't feel they have the right 'to be annoying.' Its more 'I KNOW I have the right to keep this person off my land.' Deal with it, they don't have to let you on their parcels.

Lewis - references: If I ban you from the land using legit means, no matter how much you plead with LL they won't unban you.

Now, since you add nothing to the discussion, you will get no more replies.

Solutions are better.

My proposal and several others on the voting pages.

Real privacy (real privacy, not this make-belive crap security systems bring) that has zero or near-zero impact of folks flying about the mainland. Only those on the whitelist get to see what's on the parcel - including chat and avatars. And/Or, those on the blacklist don't get to.

Don't bicker about ineffective security and supposed "rights". Demand LL make it so we have real tools that work well instead. Makes much more sense and causes fewer headaches.

The argument over security systems is getting to be like the argument over SL being a game or platform. It deserves a clause in Godwin's Law.

Responding to what I bolded.

That's a good attitude to have. All mainlanders should be aware that anything they rez in-world is viewable by others. If you don't want people looking at it, don't rez it. I'm not saying I like that, rather than just saying that is the way it is.

Security scripts can remove people who position themselves over your land. They cannot prevent people from seeing your stuff or from watching what you're doing.

Not just mainlanders either, Hugsy. I think one misconception is security is only desired to keep your stuff from being seen..or that it will keep people from seeing your stuff.

Something some need to figure out, pro and anti security both.

That's not what I asked.

I'm asking you to PROVE that, as landowner, you have the right to cause grief to people innocently passing by just because you feel like, without provocation or reason.

"Because I can" is not a reason. "Because I rent the land from Linden Lab" is not a reason either.

Mainland is ALL PUBLIC LAND, ALL VIEWABLE AT ANY TIME, and considering that "exploration" is a selling point of Second Life, rather than "privacy", then I think you are wrong, plain and simple. If you want privacy, beyond ban lines, you should consider an island or some other private community where you can sit alone in your poxy little skybox doing whatever wierd and perverse things you wish to do without people seeing you doing whatever it is, rather than interrupting innocent people's gameplay.

I pay my monthly fees to access Second Life, and part of that fee gives me the right to visit other people's land. If I am not able to visit your land, then you should pay me to compensate for the loss of service that I am experiencing as a result of your delusional paranoia.

Lewis

I gave you a reference since you did not specify anything further than my own statement. The reference is sufficient.

I also pay monthly for my land and access to SL. If you wish to have a say about my land, feel free to help pay for it.

You have given me zero USD towards my land costs. There is nothing to compensate. Perhaps you should take your delusional entitlement and ask LL for compensation.

This concludes clarification of my reference. If you can't understand my statements, not my problem, they are simple enough. I'm going to be the mature one and walk away from your bait.

No bait at all, you simply haven't been able to produce sufficient evidence except your own twisted view of entitlement, and rather than admit that my argument for access is stronger than your argument against access, simply walk off with your nose in the air pretending some fake superiority.

I pay my monthly fees to create content that others can enjoy, as well as my enjoyment in building it. I give to the community. What exactly do you contribute?

Lewis

Couldn't agree any more fervently. He gives me a headache.

OMG! I swear I think some of you MUST have been the STAR on the debate team in school LOL Y'all make my head spin sometimes.

Its ok Tatiana. Not my fault he can't see past his own nose.

Especially on the content issue, except I haven't been selling mine recently, I've been giving it away free. Giving away cash to support a nonprofit build too...

I agree - I don't care much what happens to make them stop shooting at me as long as it stops.

Land owners do ultimately have the right to allow or deny access to anyone they want for any reason on their land. No where does Linden Lab ever say that signing up for SL gives you the right to be on other people's property, if you know of a place they do I'm sure we'd all like to see it. I think raising ban lines to 768m is a pretty clear indication of that. LL is siding with land owners on that one, the land owner can ban you for any reason they see fit, even if they just think your face is ugly and you suddenly have restricted airspace. LL won't intervene. The person who pays the bill ultimately calls the shots.

'Exploration' is all fine and dandy, but just like in real life you can't go 'exploring' or even walk across private property if the owner says no. They're well within their rights to call the police on you for trespassing. In some places, it's even legal for them to haul their guns out and spread your brains all over the ground if you're on their property (although you usually have to believe yourself or someone else to be in danger to warrant it, but they still have the right to have you arrested for trespassing regardless). You might argue that we have airspace rules in RL, but in RL we're not superman either.

Your repeated claims that you have a right to explore or traverse someone elses property are getting repetitive, and weren't ever true from inception. If you'd like to prove us otherwise, ask in SL answers. I'm positive you'll find that LL sides with land owners. I personally have no access restrictions on my land, no security orbs and my ban list is empty. Anybody is welcome to come to my shop or home, but that is my choice. Just because I choose to have my land completely open doesn't mean everyone else is obligated to do the same, far from it.

In addition, everyone contributes something to Second Life. Something people like you need to understand is that the vast majority of the content in SecondLife was only created because there was gain to be had in it. I know you probably don't give a crap, but Second Life would be stagnant and tiny if there wasn't a strong motivation for people to develop quality content on it. Thriving content creators are good for everyone, and most content creators, thriving or not, give a lot back to the community in other ways. Browse around most large scale stores, you'll find freebies available from the content creator along with their paid stuff. Also there's the SLCC, sponsored by a lot of those thriving content creators, and those are just two examples. Just because you give stuff to people makes you no better than anyone else. Almost everyone gives, don't begrudge them benefitting from SecondLife for their efforts, and lose the holier-than-thou attitude, it's really quite pathetic.

Also, people contribute to Second Life just by being here, we're a community. You're basically discounting everybody's worth as a human being and saying they're only worth having around if they make something and give it to you. That's just disgusting.

I've kinda had it with people saying "You wan't privacy, buy a sim!". Not everyone can afford over a thousand of dollars a 195 a month. Even if i could i wouldn't, with how LL has been so untrustworthy lately. I manage and partually pay for 2 sims, but i don't own them. I estate manage 3 sims. One i rent land on. Another i helped create, and the last one i just manage. I could make these sims private but i would be in trouble. They were made public sims for a reason.

I agree with the principle, but the business about "the bill" doesn't quite work. The reason is basically that tier is only a part of LL's income - those people who don't own their own land are contributing to the hosting as well, if they buy L$ on LindeX or have premium. They may not be directly exchanging money for hosting, but they are still giving money to LL, and nobody but LL's accountants can make the distinction between different types of money going to LL (from an outside point of view, if LL goes bust, we all lose our hosting, even if it wasn't because of hosting costs that they went bust).



However, in real life there are also much larger areas of public property. Just take a look at the map of your city, in most cases all the streets are free for anyone to walk in. There are far fewer such roads or streets on SL because of course every one LL makes is lost prims and area for the sim residents to use. In real life you typically do not have to walk around someone else's private house to get to your own, which you almost certainly will have to to do on (for example) a First Land sim.

Also, in real life, private property has to be clearly marked and if it isn't, you can be excused trespassing on it on the grounds you couldn't have known. Ban Lines do that, but security orbs typically don't, and it's very jarring to get a "leave, you are not authorised to be here" message when you had no way of knowing that was the case at the time you entered.



But the implication of your view above would be that people who don't own land aren't worth anything to SL, because we don't care about the quality of their experience.

Its also not realistic to fly.

Or have skyboxes.

Or pan with a camera.
So real life need not apply in all senses.

Im not a fan of those annoying red lines (ESP on commercial land). but when i rented residential land i had to putone up, it does not neccesarily mean someone has something to hide at all.


Ppl walking up on your land and inside your house is NOT fun, esp when you ask them to leave and they dont. Sometimes putting up ban lines is the only way to live in peace on land you pay for.

Awww....I've offended him by pointing out that you get what you pay for.

Your post is being AR'd.

Ah, sorry, you misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that landowners are the only ones paying LL, I was referring to the person who pays for the land in question, the landowners. Landowners are king on their own parcel. While I agree with you in principle about the public land issue in RL, there's also the fact that we can't teleport in real life, and there's not really a better solution to land access right now. LL can't possibly mandate that a land owner allow someone over their land. Land in SL is more like 3D webspace than real land, and probably how LL wants it, and even website admins have the right to say 'You can't come to my website.'

Security orbs that don't give warnings are lame, agreed.

The problem is that Second Life doesn't, yet, have the same level of divisibility as the web. On the web, if you pay your own hosting then you are paying usually all the costs for the computer time and the share of the internet connection you're using, so you're effectively independant. If it happens that a hosting company is only hosting one site, yours, then if they're organised well they can probably continue hosting it anyway because you're paying your own bills in full.

On Second Life, as well as the hosting for your land, there's general things like the asset and space and user servers, the hosting for the client download, the marketing to get people interested in SL, and similar. Without those, your land hosting wouldn't be usable, but you on your own aren't paying for all of them - you're depending on other people, landowners and otherwise, to chip in to them. If the only land left on SL was yours, Linden Labs would almost certainly not find it worthwhile to keep the grid up just for your parcel. And that's why although I agree that landowners have to have the right to do what they want with their own land, I don't think that "I'm paying for it so I can do whatever I like with it and never mind anyone else" is such a great attitude to have, because those other people - or at least some of them - are helping pay for the critical shared services that your parcel requires. This doesn't mean you can't have a private house, it just means that you need to think a bit about the experience of people coming past.

Being a noob, with a professional programming background, I can say that I'm not a stranger to the "virtual economy" or the potential of SL. However....

As a pair of fresh eyes on this scene I find that land owners are taking their virtual-osity too seriously. I'm exploring a new world created by it's residents. During my orientation as a new user I was told by LL's marketing that the world was open and that I was encouraged to explore it.... UNHINDERED..... Seemed like a wonderful concept when I was in the lobby... There were no fences... No restricted areas, and minimal grief, which from my observations was quickly addressed by Lindens...

So I made the transition to the rest of the world, and I have been disappointed by the lack of courtesy, and the lack of openness. The Disneyland model that LL sells at the front gate is NOT reflected in the interior. My first night in the SL you all seem to take for granted is a very dark place.

I have already been threatened, by a resident in the sandbox for examining an object that appeared from no where, just to see what it was. I have been griefed by some moron with a web gun, and then accused of being the source of the offending "bird cages" by a Linden!!! I have been teleport away from property for flying overhead, and had no clue as to why I was returned "home" (for all I knew it could have been a network failure!!!)

I have been shot at, pushed, had my appearance altered by malformed, or maliciously formed objects (I don't know which) and I see this argument in the forum from users who have clearly been around a long time arguing over who has more rights....

Let me be frank:

If people like me, who have a reasonable take on "virtual rights" get abused by scripted objects, and negative land-owner policies after just one week(Real Time) in SL and come away with a bad impression, then who's going to pay the upkeep on your "property rights"?

I know that prims cost real $USD to maintain, and I'm not going to pay for a world where I get attacked, and restricted by people who refuse to allow me the time to adapt to this new browser, and the potential of SL because they already have purchased their "piece of the rock" and didn't pay full price for it!!!

The noobs like me are exploring, and assessing our interest in investing in LL.
You land holders do have some rights to restrict access to your holdings, but I think the balance is skewed in the wrong direction. The powers that be need to take a lesson from history and recognize easements. Better yet you land owners need to recognize that you need to welcome new users in a positive manner, as we help sustain your claim to the prims you have bought and built, and sold.

Your property claim rests on a precarious foundation because people like ME must invest in LL to sustain YOUR investment... Paranoid land holders, greifers, violent bigots, and fraudsters are not attractive elements of the SL experience. So wheres the immersive, fun, experience I was promised?! You people that are already invested need to take positive steps in cleaning up your virtual community before people like me are going to sign on... I'm not going to pay LL to live in a ghetto. I can do that in RL and get better service!!!


Seems like the safest bet is to CAMP and earn some $L, but for what?! Buying overpriced land in a bad neighborhood?! Dood! I can do that in RL!!!

=B-)

First, the wide open spaces that you're free to explore...there are plenty of those. What LL *doesn't* tell you, is that almost all land in SL belongs to individuals, who by virtue of owning and paying tier on the land, have the right to control acces to that land to whoever they want.

As for griefers, biggots, etc., what do you think *causes* paranoid land owners? They are not the problem, they are a symptom of other problems. You don't like dealing with griefers and biggots, etc.? Well, either do I. Which is why I own land, and when I see one, I ban them so that I don't have to see them again.

As to how if we don't open up, we're going to go under because we won't make any money...dude, I'm not making any money now. In fact, I'm *spending* over $100 a month for my land, and to participate in SL.

I should also mention that my land is *not* banned. People are free to visit my 1/3 sim, and free to explore the landscaped grounds, with the only restrictions being, that the beach is off limits when the owners are using it, and the houses, enclosed in featurless cherrywood cubes at 350m, are just plain off limits unless I'm there and invite you in.

I have a ban list, but the only people on it are people who've griefed me or my neighbors. In the house I also have a security orb, which has the same list. about 80% of the people I've out there are there because I walked up to them, said "Hello", and got shot.

The rest are there because they did the same to a neighbor, or because they wandered over to the beach when I was with my friends and refused to leave the group of half a doze topless girls out swimming sunbathing when told that it was a private beach, or because they broke into my house and started griefing, or were being peeping toms from outside of my house.

I'd be more likely to hang out with the girls, But then again since I'd leave if asked, and I'm attached and not trying to schmooz my way into anyones virtual panties.. well theres a difference between how I act and people showing up, hitting on the guests, male or female, furry or robot.

My point? Be nice, make friends.. if someone asks you to leave, do so. Give others the respect you'd llike for yourself.


Oh and Jack, You can shoot me anytime I'm not at work or building something. Fox too!

If *you* showed up, you'd likely be invited to stay. When weird, creepy noobs and lusers show up they get told, "I'm sorry, but this is a private beach."

I'll admit, half naked sunbathing girls in large numbers are a temptation to many, but that's why we're on private land, and not at a club.

I've heard Fox has a mean rigt hook though. She might test it out on me.