Linden Labs open invitation to griefers and extortionists?

No but that doesn't mean that the bunches of people who aren't happy with the current state of affairs should be completely ignored.

Most communities have sign ordinances as Chris has alluded to. They cover size, height above ground, distance from the road, etc. There are usually rules for both residential and commercial zones.

Obviously, we cannot retroactively enforce sign ordinances in this case, however, I would not be against regulating (read: not outlawing) signage on newly released sims.

I dont know that I would agree with this.

Perhaps it is time we all were reminded that it's their ball, their bat, their glove, their /yard/ ... they really dont /need/ justification.

And, is it so unprecedented that they take an action that is hasn't been measured against previously published criteria?

Personally I'm all for LL starting to be heavy handed, in principal, but only because I currently believe they would crack down on the same people I would . For all I know there's strong support of uber signage at LL's headquarters .

I own two different types of "property" in SL. I have an island in Dreamland and a small parcel on the North Continent. For those that aren't familiar with Dreamland, typically the price of the lots are much lower but that is because of zoning for the different sims. When I purchased that land, I had to make sure that my build was approved by Dreamland in order to have it on that property (yes I follow rules). That said, there are those that do purchase in Dreamland and don't follow the zoning rules. Frankly, zoning is very difficult to enforce on others. I am not bashing Anshe or her worker bees in the slightest. The task is daunting and even though it is considered Dreamland property, the owner still purchased it outright and some could give a rip about the "rules" or don't fully understand them.

In purchasing the other land, I felt a rush of freedom because I could put whatever I wanted to put on that land without the restrictions that I had with my island. Which also means that whomever buys the property around my land can do the same, put whatever they want on it. I always hope that those that do buy it do what I consider to be tasteful builds but that doesn't mean I will be happy with what they put up. I get to look at those signs on a daily basis right outside my front door. Do I like them? No I don't, but I choose to ignore them completely. Do I feel it is bringing the property value down in the sim next to me? Most likely since that parcel is still for sale and I don't see anyone buying that parcel in the forseeable future unless the price drops dramatically.

If LL were to start zoning each and every sim on the continents, what happens to those that already have builds in a specific sim and now all the sudden these builds aren't acceptable?

I personally feel that zoning would be just about impossible to enforce. Way too many areas to police and who would be the police anyhow?

There is always the option of something similar to a homeowners association. But, I for one would be skeptical about purchasing land that had one. What if they didn't like a tree I put outside my house? What then? And how would they even enforce the homeowners association rules and regulations?

Bottom line LL investigated and came to the conclusion that putting these signs all over the place on land that he owns isn't greifing. Sure I don't like the signs just like a lot of you but LL did what was asked of them and found no reason to back up the claims that he is greifing. So, I put up with them.

So far you and Coco are the only people I have heard of who tiered down, and neither of you has left the game. Yes you tow seem t havfe among the strongest feelings about these signs. If you have not left yet, I am not sure it ever will reach a critical mass. Frankly I don't see this as the sort of problem you tier down and leave SL for. There are plenty of things to enjoy about SL that are not tied to land value. Frankly the glut of land that LL is releasing is doing more to drop the prices than this. And from a long term vialbility poiunt there are deeper issues that will put people off the game. The sky just isn't falling over this issue at all.

Besides why leave the game when we can pitch a bicth about any issue in the forum. If we are civil and erudite in our bitch ptiching maybe LL will se arguments on both sides and when they make thier descision we can at least say well my side was heard. this isn't an insignificant issue, and interesting points are being made on both sides.

The only solution I've found is spending boatloads of money for a good location .

A little proposal promotion:
quoted from prop 404, "Six, if you have ever had an eyesore pop up on land adjacent to yours you have wished it was farther away. Now it would be twice as far away ."

See Signature.
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I know Psyra did this as well - the bigger impact is with those who are not on the forums voicing their complaints. There's a very vast silent group of people who dont visit the forums; some of whom may have left SL over this.

There's a lot of people who only have a casual investment in SL who are probably going to have a lower tolerance for having their view blocked or obscructed.

Now, personally - I'm in favour of freedom of speech, and the freedom to ignore - Hiro's solution he posted on his blog is a good compramise. Divine should be allowed to keep his signs, but people should also be allowed to hide them from view if they dont want to see them anymore.

I have not tiered down, Jake. You did not hear that from me anywhere. You may be thinking of when I said, on another blog, that I was thinking of tiering down because the only land available in my sim was owned by Divine. I was getting frustrated about it, because I was sitting on tier I was not using.

However, soon after I mentioned that, land became available (from someone else) in my sim for purchase, and I purchased it, and then said on the same blog (twice, I believe) that I was no longer considering tiering down.

I believe I also said somewhere in the past day or two on these forums that although tiering down (or squawking to the media) would both be things that the Lindens would listen to, I had no desire to hurt either the Lindens or myself by doing either, and considered those to be a last resort.

The reason I would have tiered down - since you say you don't see why I would have - is simple: I wasn't able to get any more land in my sim due to Divine's sitting on it. It was entirely personal and pragmatic. Now I have bought my land, so now that is no longer a problem. I don't intend to tier down just to get the Lindens to attend to the matter any sooner, either. However, IF the standard of living in SL in general continues to decline as a result of this, then I would consider that an option in the future.

I don't view myself as either "whining" about this issue - a word you used earlier and a word I abhore - or "pitching a bitch." I do believe I have taken considerable time and effort to address this issue both civilly and eruditely.

coco

Really, it is just an odd asynchronicity that the ability hide (via the clientside) what we don't like exists in the DEBUG menu as HIDE SELECTED, but cannot be used easier on a more controllable basis.

The roots are there, tree needs water, etc.

If people are only switching from the mainland to privately owned and zoned sims there is no significant financial loss to LL. Mainland tier payers lose when they sell at a lower value, land dealers gain cheap land and island renters, and LL pretty much breaks even. It's like the creators strike, if you aren't taking away tier from LL then what effect do you really expect to have?

It was a good idea then.

I hope these silent masses who are leaving at least have the brains to email LL and tell them why they're leaving, then, if they're not coming to say anything here. Because leaving in protest and not telling anyone why or what you're protesting about is kinda dumb.

I think(hope) LL would get it if suddenly more people then average tier down and leave. But then again we are talking about LL.

I don't. There are so many individual and collective reasons why people would be disgruntled and tier down that I think you'd have to spell out exactly which ones were pissing you off

When I sold up my sim after the 1.6 fiasco rendered several months work unusable, I made DAMNED sure Philip knew why I was no longer willing to fork over cash to LL. Not that he probably gives a shit, but at least I told him.

I think the only thing you do by leaving and not saying why is shoot yourself in the foot by depriving yourself of the platform.

Point 1. I don't have any of these things anywhere near me.

Point 2. I wasn't referring to myself.

Point 3. It is clear from the forums that some people's enjoyment of the game is being spoiled.

Point 4. It seems to me that the above posting is something of a straw man.

I'm also looking at alternative options, for relocating my shop and home to a private sim rental. So far I have found that for 25 USD/month i can get even a bit more (cca. 5000 sqm) land at Anshe's than I get for 25 USD/month for Linden Labs on the mainland.

One problem is, residential are won't do for me. An overcrowded or too frequented, lagged shop sim is also not too good, and I weekly held events at my place, too. That makes it more complicated. Also, many ppl. possibly have my shop landmarked.

Though if I keep my premium account (and not tier down to 'free'), that will mean +512 sqm land for me on the mainland. I have no idea what I'm gonna do with that. Maybe buy up 16 sqm plots and express my own political (free speech) opinions?

(This latter paragraph is a joke.)

Not true. I pay 25 USD for 4096 sqm tier on mainland.
I will pay 25 USD for about 5000 sqm to Anshe. (Equals to 20 USD for 4000 sqm.)

That's about 5 USD/month loss for Lindens. Oh, it won't make them bankrupt, but if many ppl do the same, it might show some impact. Though they may save on support costs...

But what will happen to mainland? Will it become a deserted wasteland?

The post quoted above is going on three years old now - no technological fix has occurred, the problem continues and will continue.

It is hardly surprising that one wouldn't hear of people tiering down or leaving the game, there is no reason for anyone to announce to the world at large that they are going to stop playing a video game because it sucks. People who aren't emotionally invested in the game will leave without a trace and people like Jake will of course not no anything about it.

People not satisfied to pay money that doesn't get them a pleasant view will stop paying and not give SL the world of mouth it might have had, so LL loses their tier and their referrals, but nobody hears about it because the quietly discontent vanish without a trace.

It's not just builds done on purpose for economic gain or pure meanness that matter in retention. Simple differences of opinion will have the same effect.

People will be motivated to grief build for gain so long as there are people around to give advice like the multi year old quote below.

The difference in cost is the reason I added the word substantial to my statement. I have stated before that it is most likely financially beneficial to have land managers take on the work instead of hiring LL employees to do so. I'm guessing that's why previous responses to the zoning issue have been LL's stated preference for resident provided zoning.

The future of the mainland remains debateable but I tend to weigh the possibilities with an eye towards LL's bottom line.

I think that's pretty much all you can expect to hear from. People tiering down and out aren't likely to stop off at the forum to bid farewell. People debating the issue in their mind (refer to Zonax's post) might come here to consider their options.

Kris, you can hope all you want that people tiering down will let LL know the reason for it but that assumes that they have confidence that they matter. Chances are that they'd stay if they did feel that way. While there are some who stay in spite of their disatisfaction, mainly to visit occasionally with friends, SL is optional to many. There may not be a competitor of significance for LL but there are other things to do with ones time. Life without SL. As unbelievable as that may seem, it really is a possibility.

Oh, I'm not *leaving*... I don't let anyone push me around in SL. My sig's my statement and as long as IBG is around so will the sig. I've tiered to way less than I once was but I am still in the Premium game. Just that the land is in a cozy land trust area so we don't let folks like Bush Guy get their mitts on anything.

Heh, then there's the people who decide to buy or rent islands, which are better controlled, to avoid griefers, 16meter parcels, signs, and the occasional random flashing cube of death . Azure Islands and Ansheland are both examples of how much this is catching on. So while there are people like Kriss who sell their islands, the islands don't get taken down. They get absorbed into a subcontinent or bought by someone tired of the main grid. So I really don't think tiering down is sending much of a message. SL is big enough now that you don't have to leave to avoid the nastiness. Sometimes I think that might be LL's answer to the Bush sign guy, and griefers in general. Make the grid big enough for everyone.

I am on the verge of tiering down from L$75 per month. I've had enough.

This is a mirror of my post in another thread. I worry that this info will get missed because that thread is not as strategically named as this one:

After my initial frustration, I came up with the same solution. (Feel free to organize this into 12 discrete steps)

The thing that makes divine's signs and plots so annoying and so destructive is also its own weakness: most of these lots are usually in the middle of larger lots that can be had for reasonable prices because lets face it most of these stricken lots are for sale right now.

So I bought around all the signs in my sim and built up a cover wall consisting of perfectly aligned 1x10x10 blocks stacked 120 meters high. This seems like an ugly intrusive solution? Read on.

Here are some best practices:
1-make sure that the blocks are set to phantom
2-don't put any scripts on them
3-set color to black or any other color --such as the color of the sky or a light blue green
4-set reflectiveness to full reflection under textures
5-make sure that the blocks don't overlap so that there arent any dancing artefacts when someone flies by it. It is easier to do a good job of this, if you set your x,y,z coordinates to full numbers like 10.0,20.0,10.0 instead of 10.869,20.111,10.450
6-First build a nice perimeter around the lot at ground level. make sure that your pieces are all in your land. Align everything, check for gaps, fix them. Once you're satisfied you can build your tower by selecting each piece and duplicating it and moving it 10 meters higher than the original. (or you can get all scripty and write a duplicator for yourself to put up a wall to a certain height by duplicating the original piece. Your call.)


Finally, here is my current take on the matter for those affected:
Do not lower your land prices, instead bite the bullet with the rest of us and actually keep them high at what you think your land is worth. If you decrease the price of your land to get rid of it, you're just playing into his game.

Talk to your neighbors, raise their awareness. Don't let anyone buy/sell land from this group. Boycott their land, their products, and any other source of income they might have ingame.

I did not know there were petitions until today. I am definitely going to go and sign it later today when I can sign into the game. Everyone should sign these petitions and we must make it clear to the Lindens that some creative lawmaking is obviously in order (maybe something to the effect of, you can not have a tiny subdivision surrounded by a large plot of land. Even if you do, the two have to go together when they're sold.)

If Lindens don't do anything about it, then the residents have to setup ordinances in their sims. We kind of have a similar thing in my other sim. We have a group dedicated to the residents of the sim. We communicate, we exchange ideas and rarely we warn each other about potentially offensive, intrusive, ugly builds.

We all want the same thing here, a positive, cooperative, lucrative and fun environment. Let's not let this bad apple ruin it for us all. He's just one person, we're many.

Troy