Linden Labs open invitation to griefers and extortionists?

Like many, many things in SL, this doesn't come down to morals, ethics or your personal opinion of what is right or wrong. He's not breaking the CS or ToS. If he was, something would have been done. Personally, I think your expecting LL to curb his or anyone elses right to do what he wants with his land is distasteful and disrespectful. Do we really want LL becoming the good taste police and for people to be able to pressure them into removing people's builds? Because that's all you guys are trying to achieve, given that he's not doing anything outside the rules.



What has this to do with SL and the rules of LL? Nothing. So what's your point? In real life you'd probably have recourse for smelly hazardous waste dumping next to you. Not that I have any clue what smelly toxic waste has to do with virtual signage.



In your opinion. In my opinion, he isn't trying to extort, grief or annoy anyone. He's expressing a view. Legitimately - as in he's not falling foul of the ToS/CS to do so. Whether I, you or anyone else agrees or disagrees is neither here nor there.



Uh, what? Oh right. You're trying to obsfucate the argument because you don't really have one. I get it.



And? Like I said, he isn't the first, last or only person to do this. If you want Linden Lab to focus on people who are using land sales to post land that isn't genuinely for sale, I suggest you put your energies into lobbying them for that. Then you might actually have a 'crime' you can pin on the guy.



It's an unrealistic price to me. But SL land value is subjective. If you believe your neighborhood is worth preserving at that price, go for it. But that still doesn't make it extortion that you decided to buy it to rid your area of his signs.



Because it's a fact that LL know exactly what is going on and it's a fact they have done nothing about it because it's a fact that they have said he is doing nothing wrong. No matter how much anyone else bitches and moans that in their opinion what he is doing is wrong.



I somehow doubt it. The mainland looks like a piece of shit without Lazarus help, and it doesn't seem to have caused the place to become a desolate wasteland of disgruntled ex-land owners.

At the end of the day, the ruling has been made - and quite rightly so as far as I'm concerned - that he's not breaking any rules and is free to carry on. I'm very glad to see LL not bowing to this self righteous outrage and thereby setting a dangerous precedent that the mob can dictate what you can or can't do with your land which will be far more damaging in the long term than anything Lazarus can inflict upon the world.

So just to make it clear, I'm not sticking up for Lazarus or his methods or his political views. I'm sticking up for the principle that you should be able to do what you want on your own land without people who don't like your builds being able to pressurise LL into removing them because they don't want it in the neighborhood.

If you want that kinda control, I'd suggest you go live in a rented zoned sim. Or hell, go start a rented zoned sim for all you likeminded people who think you should be able to tell your SL neighbors what is acceptable and what is not. Seems like there are enough of you that it'd be a roaring success.

SL has in the past not followed the TOS. Why stop now?

BTW, the first small plot extortionist wasn't the Impeach Bush guy. People have been doing it since the early days of SL. Signs from some gunmaker come to mind and ones with land scanner lag machines as well.

Right. What is it, then?

Well, you have now seen evidence of that. But to take your point, if someone offers the Brooklyn Bridge for sale, they are still a confidence trickster, whether they find a buyer or not.

At best, it's misuse of the Land For Sale List. And he's one of dozens and dozens of similar offenders. Except it doesn't even seem to be an offence, in that LL won't police or action it.

If I offer you <anything at all> at <ridiculously high price> and you have a choice whether to buy it or not, that simply isn't extortion by any twisting of it's definition.

It's 'criterion'.

No, but if that thing makes my life miserable, and the only way of getting rid of it is to pay your price, then it is.

It really isn't extortion even then. For it to be extortion, he would have to be putting them there with the express intention of making your life miserable personally with the aim of eliciting money from you. You have absolutely no proof whatsoever that that is the case, and he has categorically stated that it most certainly isn't the case.

Do you believe him?

Does it matter? All I'm saying is you can't really define it as extortion. And that LL don't see that he's doing anything wrong. Which means they presumably don't agree with the assessment that it's for the purpose of extortion, since that is of course against the rules.

Just because someone's not punished, doesn't mean he didn't (or doesn't) do anything wrong.

Let's suppose someone I know steals a car. If he doesn't get caught, can I argue that "If he would've committed a crime, he would've been caught."



Okay. Look, is smoking permitted in the USA is most places? If not, why not? Isn't it anyone's private right to smoke? If he wants to? How come noone shouts censorship or taste police?

Still, as a non-smoker I can only applaud such rules (try visiting Europe, and you'll know why).



You're still trying to depict your opinion 'not violating the ToS' as a fact.



Just because the first person or first few persons who violate a law might not get caught, it doesn't mean we shouldn't enforce the law on others, just because "people got away before".



Buying a 16 sqm plot just for the sake for putting up a griefing sign to motivate people to pay extortion prices (L$ 5000) is extortion.



1. Is it a fact that LL kniow exactly what is going on? Okay, I can accept this.
2. Is Linden Labs doing nothing about it? Seems so.
3. Did they say he's doing nothing wrong? If so, where?



Well, my neighbourhood didn't look like shit till the Bush Guy came. Yes, it had ugly builds, but it luckily survived the griefing evil extortionists (who purchase a small plot, build as griefing as they can, then try to price it high).



Mob rule? Not anymore mob rule than anywhere in the western world.



There's a difference between building ugly, making half finished plywoods out of lazyness, carelessness, whatever and between polluting the grid all over griefing, spamming and extorting.



Yes, maybe the Lindens want this, too, maybe it would mean less support costs to them?
I have a shop that I would like to keep and not exchange for a residential house (in a zoned sim), just because i have no other choice.

I like to have the tools and options to manage land, and I wouldn't have the same on private sims, I think. I also like the fact that the sim I am on will be there today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow. Less risk than renting on a private sim.

I'm not continuing this tit for tat because it wont get anyone anywhere. But your quotes above sum up what I think is the problem with your argument. You continually equate these signs in SL to stuff IRL. He isn't stealing a car... or any other analogy you can possibly come up with, including rights to smoke in public around the world. He isn't answerable to any law other than those determined by Linden Lab - the privately owned company that make the rules here. And they've made their decision based upon the rules in place. Which is what I keep saying.

I just happen to agree with the ruling in the context that I don't see anything in the ToS that says he can't do it and therefore they shouldn't take action against him.

You have to make assumptions about his motives for which you have no proof before you can call it griefing or extortion. And if it were such a clear cut case of large scale long term griefing, surely he be banned by now.

But anyway, like I say, we could sit here picking each others arguments to pieces sentence by sentence but neither of us are going to change our stance, so let's save ourselves some typing shall we?

The problem with an open system is that you'll never be able to restrict people from behaving badly. Rather than restrict features based on a social problem, its just better to enhance the tools so at least the users can have some degree of control when it comes to interaction.

Its a long road, one that SL has a ways to go.

If your life can be made miserable by a textured cube then the cube itself is the least of your problems.

I disagree, a big part of SL's appeal is that it's a visual treat. Whats the point of SL otherwise? The signs are really making SL an unnatractive place. Who would want to pay for virtual space where you have to sit and stare at that crap? I can park myself on the side of the highway and look at billboards for free thank you very much. And generally they're more visually appealing.

I guess the solution is for people to dump their land on the main grid and go get themselves an island. Or just dump their land and tier down. I'm fortunate to have land in old sims where i don't have to deal with this but it would bug the crap out of me I would think.

I still think LL needs to figure a way to deal with Monsieur Divine. Otherwise more and more people will follow his unique money making plan, the grid will become more of a disaster, and people will just file out the door.

If we were able to mute people's objects, have them disappear totally client side, this could be a solution. Although everyone else would still have to look at them.

Hey Kris thanks for listing all your alts in profile now I can add more to mute list, now to go write my proposal to add a mute feature to the forums as well

I did read the thread thanks, and you seemed to advocate outlawing religious and political groups in SL. As the manager of a group devoted to Himilayan culture and Buddhism, I felt compelled to respond to any sentiment that might narrow SL's diversity. I've seen the RL persecution of "religious" groups in China, Tibet and Xinjiang and can't let that stand. Sorry.

lmao. If you think those are really my alts you need your head testing. But go ahead and mute Torley anyway if you like. Oh wait. You won't see this. Doh!

Edit: Oh wait. You don't know how to ignore people in the forums? Lemme help. Click my name to the side of this post. Go to 'View Public Profile' and select 'Add Kris Ritter to your ignore list' on the right. Et voila! The only time you have to hear from me is when someone quotes. Unfortunately. HTH.

Believe me, LL will have a change of heart regarding TOS enforcement *well* before that takes place.

When RL money is at stake in SL, you bet people will continue to equate the practices of SL with RL. Or should they not?

Why isn't the answer for people to simply stand their ground and not allow themselves to be pushed around? Or maybe to stop worrying about what other people are doing on their own land (even if it happens to be next door) and just go about their business on theirs?

SL is supposed to be about creativity and self expression. The impeach Bush signs might not be especially creative, but they are not a threat to anyone else's creativity or self expression. Thin skinned people who feel they should be able to force their neighbors to conform to their subjective expectations is a far bigger threat in the long run.

Where do you draw the line? Should every build be subject to a popular vote among its neighbors and be removed if it gets the thumbs down? Should we ban all signage? Should we ban religious symbols and political expression? Nudity? Sex? With 100,000 members it shouldn't be hard to find a group of people who are offended by just about anything you can think of. There are large and vocal contingents that are offended by furries and goreans. Should we ban them? Should we let go of freeform creativity in favor of strict codes that try to ensure that no one has their delicate sensibilities chafed?

Personally I think the freedom to express ourselves in the manner that we choose is the greatest thing SL has to offer, and putting up with these signs is an incredibly small price to pay.

Depends what their equating. Equating what LL say you can do in their private Terms of Service in their virtual world to what US law says you can do in your rl neighborhood, or likening virtual signs to rl toxic waste dumping makes little sense, no matter how much money you're putting in or getting out.

Maybe we should have to submit building plans to BuildingInspector Linden and wait a few months for approval before rezzing a prim anywhere too?

You're giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. I'm not. What you're calling freedom of expression, I'm calling land extortion. Here's why:

He had land for sale in Brown, a linden zoned sim. His price was 3000l for 16m of land. Jack Linden took the sign down - zoned sim rules. The guy lowered his price to 500L for the plot. Conclusion: his method of extortion was removed and he realized he could not sell the land without the massive sign in the sky to annoy people. So he dropped his price radically.

Freedom of expression is cool, if you're expressing your freedom, as opposed to expressing your freedom to extort people.

Thanks, Chip. You are frequently a voice of reason. Which is NOT to say that your opponents are unreasonable here (I'm not trying to start a fight).

But I'm pretty new to SL, and the world seems so amazing to me that I can't really fathom the great upset this is causing. Maybe when I get more established and jaded I'll feel the way others do. But right now, I've only seen a couple of these signs in my limited exploring and it's never ruined anything for me.

OK you know I love you but I really had to get a definition check on the word "extortion".





Since there's no harm being threatened (besides the harm to the view, but let's face it, that's never guaranteed anyway, and you don't own the view), what this guy is doing isn't extortion.

Call it whatever you want. He's putting up unnapealing stuff to sell his land.


And to be quite honest, i think this part of your definition fits in quite well:

when a person obtains money by inflicting harm to this person, reputation, or property.


Can your property really be harmed in a virtual space? Maybe not. It's all pixels. But by that logic, we shouldn't have any issues with anything in SL since it's all fake.