Linden Labs open invitation to griefers and extortionists?

Is Linden Labs setting a bad precedent by letting the impeach bush guy do his grid-wide griefing and extortion undisturbed?

If he can do what he does, what's the guarantee others won't follow?
He isn't the first extortionist using small parcels, but he is the biggest one right now.
Does this project a dark future for SL?

They say one's freedom can only be so great as not to cause harm to others. I think griefers are past this limit, and neither the ToS or Linden Labs are doing a thing. Why?

Yes.
None.
Yes.
Don't know.

coco

Deleteing people's builds without any specific criteria would set a worse precedent.

None.

Too early to tell.

Linden Lab is following the TOS and asking for ideas for revisions that would end the sign problem without eliminating legitimate signs.

And I say Linden Lab is deliberately NOT following its own TOS.

coco

1. This assumes its griefing and not just complaining caus an ugly build has ruined your view. Teh fact that the land is forsale at a ridiculous price is not extortion. Maybe if someone says they actually bought the land to make him go away, but i haven't heard of that yet. Otherwise see Aimee's post.

2. There is no guarantee about anything.

3. I doubt it.

4. Well because LL has had it adequately proved to them that this is greifing, apparently. Otherwise see the answer in aimee's post.

But you don't know that. Its your opinion, formed entirely on incomplete information adn speculation, as well as your assumption that this users conduct amounts to griefing. So far all I have senn put forward regarding this being extortion and griefing is mere shadowns and dust. Conclusory statemtents of opinion are not actionable facts. Demonstrate even one instance of this guy demanding money, or even of somebody buying the land at his high price and you might have a case.

Right now all you have is the fact you don't like the ugly signs.

Well thank you Chip, that is the first shred of evidence i have had of someone buying the land. I am not sure that rises to the level of griefing, but maybe we can impress upon the purchasers of the land to complain to LL and AR, the guy.

Mostly I agree with you, let him stew on it, paying his tier, don't give him any money and the signs will go away. Certainly they will in 2008 lol

I never said it would be easy

Yes, it is my opinion, just as it is Aimee's opinion that there is nothing in the TOS to cover this situation.

However there are at least three things in the TOS to cover this situation, and I have put those forth before.

Therefore it is a matter of interpretation of the TOS, which is always subjective and a matter of opinion, just as interpreting the U.S. Constitution is subjective. That doesn't mean that people are going to stop interpreting the Constitution, or stop trying to use it, or existing laws and legal precedent, to run the country.

I am not ASSUMING this user's conduct amounts to griefing. That would imply that I know nothing about the situation whatsoever. I have CONCLUDED his conduct amounts to griefing, based on many observerable facts as well as ample anecdotal evidence, chat logs, etc.

"Right now all you have is the fact that you don't like the ugly signs."

That is not a fact at ALL. That is something you have said and attributed to me. I'm not even sure I've ever used the term "ugly" in reference to his signs; I have said I don't like them. You are making me sound like somebody standing there stamping my foot and saying, "Mommy! I don't like that club's revolving sign next door! Make them take it down!"

I couldn't care less about this or that person's individual build, ugly, boring, or whatever; I usually outlast whatever is around me. I had one of these signs next to me on this property I had, and I didn't pay it the slightest attention, though I could see perfectly well the extortionary prices on the land under it.

It's when these signs multiplied, all over the grid, bringing down land values and making people miserable, taking up all the available land in a sim, while he raked in the bucks, that I recognized it as more than just an "ugly build" problem and became concerned.

This is a widespread, growing societal problem that not only griefs individual residents, but threatens SL itself. That's a far bigger "fact" than someone not caring for another person's sign or build.

That it is extortion is a total fact. I'm not sure how you are defining extortion, but let's say irl, someone next door to you kept blaring the stereo at all hours, and you demanded they stop. They said they would if you gave them $5,000. I call that extortion.

Now I know that's not a perfect analogy, but that IS what is going on here, and the guy himself has admitted as much, if other people's chat logs can be taken at face value.

coco

Yes.



IMO SL highly likely has no long term future.Unless there's a huge change in the implementation. SL is the "Mosaic" or "Netscape" of 3D browsing. Others will follow and and fix the mistakes made here. As SL residents we have the power to vote with our feet. Eventually there'll be aternatives to give us that power. Until then our only options are to put up with it as it is, complain or leave.



They probably hope if they can bury their heads for long enough it'll go away. I don't believe it will, it's bound to get worse. Why ? Because sociopaths can find in SL a wealth of opportunity and the current implementation allows them more freedom than the victims. ( Just like RL ! )

No more xmas or easter events. No cathedrals. I don't care much for that - and I'm an athiest.

Me and the weekly "Neualtenburg church meetings" would like to disagree with you.

True..

Well I guess those Bush Signs and other propaganda will have to stay. Hopefully those signs don't evolve to other anti-signs. Unless LL take up a provision to disallow propaganda stuff that might offend other folks beliefs then we'll have to tolerate it. As sad as it sounds, the guy is working under th loopholes of the TOS which makes what he's doing legit.

A change of text and back in business.

What, in lieu of a virtual nation of shoppers and sellers? This is just silly!

The lack of diversity and the relative paucity of civil society institutions (non-commercial, non-governmental organizations like non-profits, community groups, etc.) is one of SL's great weaknessess, as these are the RL fabric that help hold nations in times of conflist and rapid upeaval. And debate is important and should not be confused with "creating more divisions," tho it's clear that SL residents have spent too much time on this issue, when far more creative and positive things could have been discussed.

Purging SL on the basis of content is just plain wrong. Many posters have made it clear that they don't want a gated community in SL, nor do they intend to pay RL $$s for an anarcho-capitalist experiment that gives free reign to digital griefers, extortionists and wanna-be sociopaths. Rather, it is behaviour -- unmitigated bad behaviour -- that concerns people most.

And as I've posted before, this is a leadership issue that LL needs to address. Residents are not empowered to provide solutions, nor are there mechanisms to allow for substantive input into the virtual policy process. And for as long as LL fails to take the lead on this and other issues, residents will have ample opportunity to consider the worth of their SL investment.

As for solutions, there have been many posts, from the creation of new invisible prims that would effectively filter out griefer clutter; limiting prim dimenions on small plots; and a much more advanced system of allowing players to toggle off viewing all content provided by certain members, a visual ban list. Or the TOL could be interpreted to include serial extortionists like Mr. Bush Himself, given that the tacit political campaign follows some sketchy and downright lame logic, and that the plots themselves are priced high, but not so high that someone desperate for relief couldn't run out and buy up $30k of small prim land.

Limiting religion and politics? Malls are churches in SL, I argue, so please be careful whose content you propose to eliminate.

/108/80/80548/1.html

Attempted to dissect the core problem and why the real solutions are perceived as unfavorable.

Not even going to touch "free speech," because this has happened in the past completely without any real "message." Free speech has nothing to do with the matter.

Must be a slow couple of weeks. Young Lazarus seems to have loads of threads dedicated to him. I'm sure he's loving it

I don't know what the problem is, but I sure wish people would stop trying to dictate what other people can put on their own land.

He isn't extorting anyone. He isn't terrorising anyone. He has some signs up. On his own land. That in some cases is for sale. Which I strongly suspect is priced that high so that people DONT buy it, but so that he appears in the Land Sales listings. He certainly will not be the first or last person to use the land sales list for that.

You can bend and twist it as much as you like, or assume whatever you want about his motives, but it doesnt change the fact that LL aren't going to do anything because he isn't doing anything wrong.

I don't like Anshechung.com signs all over the fucking place. They're an ugly blight on the landscape in my opinion. But I wouldn't be such an asshole as to come whine here trying to justify why I think they should be removed from SL or why Anshe should be banned from SL for doing it. Lazarus has sure fired up the self righteous and the selfish, huh?

I'm thinking of doing something similar, btw. Though it won't be as politically motivated because I couldn't give a stuff about Bush. So when my 'Teddy Bears Are Teh Evol!' signs go up all over SL, and the plots for sale for 9,999,999 L$ will you call for my banning/lynching too? Will I be elevated to the same status as celebrity virtual terrorist? What, because YOU don't like them? Cool! That gives me even more motivation to do it!

Oh, and Lazarus, if you're reading, I'll gladly make you an even less tasteful sign for free, just for shits and giggles. I'm thinking neon pink and animated.

Point already taken. Please read entire thread before you reply thank you very much.

Wow. I really never knew about that particular criteria for forum posting! Thanks for enlightening me!

Well at least you get to learn something today. Enlightenment comes to all us.

While pig ignorance and supreme arrogance come to the select few.

This seems like a kind of bad interpretation of liberalism that doesn't respect that other people have the right to a good life and living.

If I buy a small plot in RL right next to your RL house and dump some smelly or hazardous waste on it, am I okay, because "it's my land"! Maybe even put up some "for sale - high price" sign on it...

As I think there's a difference in RL between building and ugly house (though that's an untasteful view, is not really debatable), and deliberatery griefing or annoying people, with no other reason than to annoy and extort.



You would surely make a good lawyer
'Mister, he didn't deliberately kill that person, he just took his own knife on his own property, and placed it down. The notion that the 'down' happened be the victim is just pure speculative interpretation, in fact, it is purely the victim's fault that he was between the floor and the knife.'

The 'set to sell' checkbox and price field are tools for people to 'express their intention to sell land'. Well, the 'set to sell' is the explicit permission for the system to handle the selling, while the price is just a parameter providing the money expected in return.

I wouldn't call L$ 5000 such a high price that it's unreal, it's about 20 USD's. Is your nice neighbourhood worth 20 USD, when you're paying 20-50 USD/month for your otherwise nice place? It might sure be so!



Why is it a 'fact' that he's not doing anything wrong, while it's only an 'unbased opinion' that he is? What makes one a fact, and the other side a mere opinion?



Great! I hoped more people will follow, eventually getting the mainland inhabitable to paying customers, thereby hurting Linden Labs's real USD income.