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yard sales banned from the events calendar

Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
01-27-2006 10:28
Yesterday, 11:59 PM
From: Jesse Linden
proposing to eliminate yard sales from the events calendar and redirecting folks to the classifieds where they belong in most cases. thumbs up or thumbs down....?


One hour, twenty-two minutes--and sixteen comments later.

Today, 01:21 AM
From: Jesse Linden
ok all gone...no more yard sales on the calendar...


What is the point of asking for resident imput if the period for discussion and comment is so brief?

I'd at least like a chance to respond and be heard. As I've set forth in my two previous posts, I think this is a poor idea--and that the subset of people who's opinions you are asking for will be (for sound economic reasons) in favor of eliminating Yard Sale and Commercial postings. However, I am skeptical if their opinions are representative of the average SL resident.

I urge you to reopen discussion and find ways of getting feedback from other sectors of the SL population before making a decision like this.
Jesse Linden
Administrator
Join date: 4 Apr 2005
Posts: 285
01-27-2006 10:33
The Commercial category is useful for events like 'new product show and tells' and 'grand openings' and whatnot. The key distinguishing factor here is that these events have a start and an end time. They are also hosted by someone. Thus 24/7 Yard Sales are not events and they belong in the Classifieds.

We have new tools built into the client that make it much easier to get rid of events calendar spam so I hope some of the changes will become noticeable.

Eventually, we hope to implement a resident events moderation system a la Craig's List whereby after a certain number of flags, the event is auto-deleted from the system with some checks and balances built in to prevent 'ganging up' on disliked yet legitimate events.

The alternative to all this is to simply charge people to post events. I'm hoping to avoid that scenario...
bladyblue Bommerang
Premium Account
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 646
Drive-Thru Democracy
01-27-2006 10:34
From: Jesse Linden
ok all gone...no more yard sales on the calendar...


So you pose a question on the forums, ten supporters respond and a desicion is made. Watch out residents - today it's annoying yardsalers - tommorow it could be you.
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Lordfly Digeridoo
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Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
01-27-2006 10:34
From: Carl Metropolitan
Yesterday, 11:59 PM


One hour, twenty-two minutes--and sixteen comments later.

Today, 01:21 AM


What is the point of asking for resident imput if the period for discussion and comment is so brief?

I'd at least like a chance to respond and be heard. As I've set forth in my two previous posts, I think this is a poor idea--and that the subset of people who's opinions you are asking for will be (for sound economic reasons) in favor of eliminating Yard Sale and Commercial postings. However, I am skeptical if their opinions are representative of the average SL resident.

I urge you to reopen discussion and find ways of getting feedback from other sectors of the SL population before making a decision like this.


I can tell you exactly how any "discussion" will end up.

1) Content creators will be all for it, as they are reselling their works. Any discussions to the contrary will be shot down violently, mocked with off-topic images, and derided as short-sighted

2) Yard sale event propritetors will be vehemently against it, because LLab is unfairly cutting against their "only way of making money". They'll kick and scream and threaten to leave. Three weeks later they'll be doing something else in SL.

3) Yard sale event-goers will be split; on one hand, they enjoy cheap deals. On the other hand, they don't want to rip off content creators (at least some of them; others won't care).

4) Some of the self-proclaimed "capitalists" on the forums will puff their chests out and thump mightily, but considering they don't have any teeth, will mostly be disregarded.

5) Everyone else will be relieved that the events listing might be a smidge more useful.

LF
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Eboni Khan
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Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
01-27-2006 10:42
Yay on banning yard sales.

Nay on banning all commercial events. Hiro once had those events for the poseballs, which were pretty informative, well done, and enteraining events, even if the poseball system itself was insanely over priced. I would hate to see those types of events go away.
Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
01-27-2006 10:44
Lordfly--You may be correct in your overall assessment--but we won't know unless there is such a open discussion. I realize that LL and SL are not democracies, and that Jesse has the right to make whatever decision that she and LL believe will be for the good of SL as a whole. I just wish there was a way for more SL residents to be involved with the discussion and some type of consensus to emerge.

From: Lordfly Digeridoo

3) Yard sale event-goers will be split; on one hand, they enjoy cheap deals. On the other hand, they don't want to rip off content creators (at least some of them; others won't care).


I'm puzzled by this comment. Why would buying used items be ripping off content creators? I could understand your comment if a yard sell was selling freebies--is that what you are refering to?
Lora Morgan
Puts the "eek" in "geek"
Join date: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 779
01-27-2006 10:47
I'm very glad something is being done about the calender. Eliminating yard sales was a great first step. Next up: onto the rest of the commercial ads, like "50L per 10Min Money Chair + Casino!"

Wait a sec...<blinks>...am I missing something or did all the "Sexcapade" events go away?
Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
01-27-2006 10:58
From: Jesse Linden
The alternative to all this is to simply charge people to post events. I'm hoping to avoid that scenario...


/applying Kevlar vest

IMHO - I wouldn't mind one bit if a nominal fee was charged in order to post an event, based upon duration. Like something under L$25/hour. It would certainly be a disincentive for those who want to post the same event all day, all the time.


Additionaly, Carl - I disagree that its a bad thing to have Yard Sales off the Event Calendar. If I were a creative and enterprising new resident trying to sell my wares at a Yard Sale - and I could no longer post that to the event calendar....

I would attempt to group together with other like-minded residents and 'share' the classified ad fee. Not only would this offset the cost of posting a classified ad, but it could make for a bigger and better yard sale for those wishing to patron them.

I'm also thinking - what if someone put together a "Yard Sale" area - allowing folks to freely place individual items for sale, maybe with an autoreturn value of 48 hours for example (if that's possible). If those existed, I bet they would attract those who are currently frequent visitors to yard sales. At the very least, its a possible enterprise posibility for someone befuddled on what to do with their 512m parcel of land. :)
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Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
01-27-2006 11:20
Well, I don't consider yard sales to be a rip-off unless they are selling free items or selling items for more than they originally cost.

And, just as with going to real life yard sales, you just have to be savvy before you buy. (And sometimes I might buy something overpriced anyway, just cause I love it, and it would be some trouble to find it otherwise, or to compare prices, and it might not even be on the market anymore.)

coco
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Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
01-27-2006 11:43
Take a trip to the events calendar, and sort by name.... you get some very interesting spamming of the calendar.

One place doing a 50L/10 minutes thing, every 3 hours, for 3 hours duration.

There's a 12 hour yard sale - if you count the 4 times its posted.

A park has five 3 hour back to back identical events.

12 hours of 'inventory clearance' "through the weekend" so far posted.

People are using alts to get around the restriction on the amount of things you can post, in an obvious attempt to circumvent the system in a way that an automated system might find hard to identify.

There are currently 177 events listed in the calendar. A quick check through reveals at least 100 to be "multiple entries" of the same event, meaning that 100 are at most about 15 different events - and how many of that 15 are actual events is even questionable.

Out of the 70 or so entries left, at least half were TeaZer's classes, of all different types, which are perfectly legitimate to have individual entries.

The obvious conclusion? Today, something like 75% of the current calendar is complete spam crap that has no place on a true 'events calendar', and real legitimate events are easily overlooked as you skim through the ephemera.

Lewis
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Eata Kitty
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Join date: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 387
01-27-2006 12:17
I think Lewis is spot on here.

Practically every club is simultaneously a shop and the bulk of events seem to be based around "Come to X and model your sexiest whatever, 1000L for the winner". It's not quite the same as a yard sale but it's pretty thin for an event... not too different from real clubs true but most of these clubs run practically 24 hours a day, with repeat events as much as possible. It just chocks up the calender with the same stuff over and over.
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
01-27-2006 12:57
Oh its really pathetic how the repeat events go on.

One well known 'popular' (read camping chairs) club has TWENTY events posted today for repeated perpetual *ingo 'events'

Oh Jesse.... *tempts a Linden with a cookie*

Lewis
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Ordinal Malaprop
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Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
01-27-2006 13:03
Yard sales are shops. Just because you choose only to open your shop at a certain time, possibly, does not make it an "event".

Anything selling anything should be banned from events. All it does is make it harder for people who are running real events - you know, where the content isn't simply buying things from the owner, and maybe a token money ball or streaming audio.
Cocoanut Cookie
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
01-27-2006 13:22
From: Lewis Nerd
Oh Jesse.... *tempts a Linden with a cookie*

Lewis

Leave me out of this, Lewis! I'm not that kind of girl!

coco
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Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
01-27-2006 13:23
From: Cocoanut Cookie
Leave me out of this, Lewis! I'm not that kind of girl!

coco


LMAO :D
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Sansarya Caligari
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Join date: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,206
01-27-2006 13:25
Originally Posted by Lordfly Digeridoo
3) Yard sale event-goers will be split; on one hand, they enjoy cheap deals. On the other hand, they don't want to rip off content creators (at least some of them; others won't care).


From: Carl Metropolitan
I'm puzzled by this comment. Why would buying used items be ripping off content creators? I could understand your comment if a yard sell was selling freebies--is that what you are refering to?


Just as an example: If I bought a house designed by Lordfly I might pay $2000L for it. Five months later I buy a different house from Barnesworth and decide to sell Lordfly's house to help pay for the new Barnesworth house....so I sell Lordfly's house at a yard sale for $500L, while Lordfly is still selling this same house for $2000L in his vendor in Midnight City. I've just undercut Lordfly's prices (thus hurting a content creator) and someone shopping at a yard sale got a great deal on a slightly used designer house...picture the same thing happening to clothing designers, hair designers, skin designers, gadget builders, furniture designers, over and over and over again.

It would be different if the content in SL lost quality over a certain amount of time like they do in real life, but my clothing looks brand new in SL every time I put it on. You can't tell it's been used at all ;)
Cocoanut Cookie
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Join date: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,741
01-27-2006 13:29
From: Sansarya Caligari
Originally Posted by Lordfly Digeridoo
3) Yard sale event-goers will be split; on one hand, they enjoy cheap deals. On the other hand, they don't want to rip off content creators (at least some of them; others won't care).



Just as an example: If I bought a house designed by Lordfly I might pay $2000L for it. Five months later I buy a different house from Barnesworth and decide to sell Lordfly's house to help pay for the new Barnesworth house....so I sell Lordfly's house at a yard sale for $500L, while Lordfly is still selling this same house for $2000L in his vendor in Midnight City. I've just undercut Lordfly's prices (thus hurting a content creator) and someone shopping at a yard sale got a great deal on a slightly used designer house...picture the same thing happening to clothing designers, hair designers, skin designers, gadget builders, furniture designers, over and over and over again.

It would be different if the content in SL lost quality over a certain amount of time like they do in real life, but my clothing looks brand new in SL every time I put it on. You can't tell it's been used at all ;)

That's true, it doesn't lose quality. I hadn't thought of that. But - if a person doesn't want their item resold, they just put it so that it can't be. My houses can't be transferred.

Likewise, if a person doesn't want to see multiple copies of their thing used by one person, they just put it no-copy. My houses can be copied.

I love the yard sales, and they add quite a bit of entertainment to this game for me, which - aside from Captions and the occasional well-run Blood 21 - is exceptionally and increasingly lacking in entertainment for me.

coco
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Pendari Lorentz
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Posts: 4,372
01-27-2006 15:05
From: Cocoanut Cookie
From: Lewis Nerd

Oh Jesse.... *tempts a Linden with a cookie*

Lewis


Leave me out of this, Lewis! I'm not that kind of girl!

coco


Ok. That actually made me laugh out loud. :D
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Carl Metropolitan
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01-27-2006 15:09
From: Sansarya Caligari
Just as an example: If I bought a house designed by Lordfly I might pay $2000L for it. Five months later I buy a different house from Barnesworth and decide to sell Lordfly's house to help pay for the new Barnesworth house....so I sell Lordfly's house at a yard sale for $500L, while Lordfly is still selling this same house for $2000L in his vendor in Midnight City.


I fail to see how this is a "rip-off" of Lordfly. He sold you something--you now own it. What you choose to do with that object is up to you. If I sell my RL car, am I somehow ripping off Chrysler? No. So why would a SL car I bought from BC Motors (for example) be any different?

The (nearly) unrestricted right of a purchaser to resell is a fundamental part of RL commerce law. Even if you choose to look at SL goods as more analogous media (such as books, music, or movies) than manufactured goods, the right to resale a legally purchased copy (the First-Sale Doctrine) is well established in RL US law.

In fact in SL, the content creator has even more rights than a RL manufacturer or creator; the SL creator has the option of making his or her creations "no transfer." Given that, I think it is quite reasonable to assume that buying an item in SL with transfer rights enabled implies explicit consent from the creator to future resale of that item.

From: Sansarya Caligari
I've just undercut Lordfly's prices (thus hurting a content creator) and someone shopping at a yard sale got a great deal on a slightly used designer house...picture the same thing happening to clothing designers, hair designers, skin designers, gadget builders, furniture designers, over and over and over again.


It does--it happens all the time, both in SL and RL. A secondary market is a perfectly normal part of the economy. I have a good friend in SL who owns a furniture resale shop. She's worked hard to make a nice store and find the best stuff to sell there. She's not ripping off anyone.

From: Sansarya Caligari
It would be different if the content in SL lost quality over a certain amount of time like they do in real life, but my clothing looks brand new in SL every time I put it on. You can't tell it's been used at all ;)


That may be the case, but clothing, furniture, etc. prices on the secondary market in SL are at least 25% less than new--usually more. Consumers here do not assume that resold items are equivalent to new; if they did, people selling second-hand items could get new item prices.
Anastazia Lemieux
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Join date: 8 Jul 2005
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Kudos to Carl for saying what many have probably thought
01-27-2006 15:10
From: Carl Metropolitan
Yesterday, 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Linden
proposing to eliminate yard sales from the events calendar and redirecting folks to the classifieds where they belong in most cases. thumbs up or thumbs down....?




One hour, twenty-two minutes--and sixteen comments later.

Today, 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Linden
ok all gone...no more yard sales on the calendar...



What is the point of asking for resident imput if the period for discussion and comment is so brief?



THANK YOU CARL! I was wondering the same thing!! It's like we want your input and thoughts... oh nevermind, I've made the final decision.

I wouldn't mind paying to post a yard sale, but really think it's a great idea for ALL events to have to pay a fee.

Come back to edit I know you all are going to say yes pay for a classified ad. Once again the problem is people aren't use to looking in classified ads, they are use to looking at events.
Stephen Teazle
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Join date: 30 May 2005
Posts: 31
01-28-2006 14:16
Another fine job by LL of throwing out the baby with the bath water. First let's take a single symptom (yard sales) of an annoying game-wide problem (the complete commercialization of the event listings). Then let's make a unilateral, draconian decision (all yards sales are banned from events) after opening it for "discussion" for a few hours and sit back while everyone pats us on the back.

I mean thank god yard sales are off events so I can get back to finding ads for casinos, camping chairs, best thong contests and learn to be an escort events. If you really wanted to do something valuable about the events listings, first discuss what the systemic problem is, ponder the options and have a game-wide (forum-wide?) debate about it. Sadly that might take a little more than a couple of hours. But instead it's much easier to pull the rug out of one little annoyance so you can claim problem solved when of course everyone knows nothing was solved and something equally annoying will quickly replace it.

(And in the interest of full disclosure I have had two yard sales on my land in the last four months or so but only of items I've bought. I don't have a store or any commercial ventures that would have done the perma-yard sale thing so I'm happy to see the fake ones gone from events too.)
milady Guillaume
Shhhh, I'm researching!
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 696
01-28-2006 14:21
Looking at the event calendar as we speak...or read as it were....

Yard Sale!!!!!!!!!!
2006-01-28 02:00:00
Duration: 3:00
Run By: Name withheld due to rules and regulations of the forums.
Location: Holiday (137,214,22)

Come on over for some great deals on clothes, accessories & home items!!!!


Looks like a yard sale to me.. smells like a yard sale, and it's on the events calendar. Guess the Linden decision to remove them didn't work quite so well.
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Joy Honey
Not just another dumass
Join date: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 3,751
01-28-2006 14:30
In all honesty, the events calendar is so abused, I suggest a complete overhaul. Bear with me now, because I'm just coming up with this plan as I'm posting ;)

1) Ban places who have abused the calendar for... oh, a year. I thought the rules were max 5/day for a location, but I see now that it's per person and alts are not allowed to be used, but I've seen them used plenty.... I think it's safe to say they've used up AT LEAST one year's worth of events :rolleyes:

2) Yard sales would be acceptable (for me) if they were indeed YARD SALES... in RL, yard sales usually do not last more than 2 weekends....

3) Sex clubs........ ok, don't really wanna go there, but I have to since there are a few clubs that abuse the calendar too.... and to quote the events posting rules:

From: someone
The event descriptions need to conform to PG guidelines, consistent with the overall Second Life website policy - so no overt sex descriptions; sex for money, sex chat, simulated sex, strong violence, or anything else broadly offensive.


Anyone wanna add more? My kids are fighting... gotta go break them up :D
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milady Guillaume
Shhhh, I'm researching!
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 696
01-28-2006 14:55
Create fair rules for all.. uphold them by banning someone for misusing it or not following the rules set forth..and enjoy looking through events once again.

The discipline system is in place, just enforce it.
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Frank Black
Registered User
Join date: 1 Apr 2005
Posts: 12
01-28-2006 14:57
So, have the yard sales been removed yet?
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