Torley's Answer Regarding Posts Removed in the Linden Blogs

Yes they did. Aaron raised them quite differently though didn't he? They weren't silencing dissent, because they allowed Aaron to make the point. So why did the comment go? Review Jopsy's analysis, compare Aaraon's post, and maybe you'll see that all they're doing is establishing a standard (of sorts) of appropriate ways to comment. Jopsy got it spot on, and is my hero for the day... forum-like grandstanding and theatre isn't required, effective or (from their point of view) desired. You're exactly right Coco, Aaron wasn't being a victim, or performing theatre... and look... the point was made.

I went back after some sleep, and looked at the blog again, and there was no way posting a question about why a comment was removed was on-topic or appropriate (they should set some clear guidelines though, not this fuzzy family-room crap). And then there was the tone of your question Coco. Questioning someone's sanity/intelligence is never a good opening. How much bullshit do you put up with from your customers before you say, 'I don't care, go away'?

Have a look at Lawrence's economy update... there's a whole bunch of dissent and contrary views there, so they're certainly allowing criticism. It's not a forum, yet you're still searching for forum-like communication on it. It's a subsitute only for Linden announcements and topics and for feedback on them. For that function, they do a better job than the Linden forums, at least there you can comment directly. The rest of the forums, LL believes will be satisfactory replaced by third party forums. I think they're wrong on that, waaay wrong, but there you have it. So they don't want to force a function that doesn't fit on it.

We've learnt one strategy for communicating with LL, and that's to be overtly vocal and rowdy to attract their attention, and that's partly because of the disconnect that existed between Linden announcements and the discussion forums, and the blog partially bridges that divide. You don't need to be always storming the castle, sometimes you can knock and ask to come in. So why puff yourself out?

There must be a problem on the blogs because another of my posts has just disappeared.

Lewis

try a less bitter filled post maybe?

It gets worse. When questioning the Linden responsible for post removal, I then get threatened with if I make any more "inappropriate posts" then I will be blocked from posting on the blogs permanently.

I have abuse reported him for making a threat, and emailed Philip Linden with an official complaint regarding this individual.

Why are Linden Lab so worried about the truth being displayed?

Lewis

They're not worried about the truth, Lewis.

They're worried about the verbal puke you regularly excrete.

Different animal entirely.

This is astonishingly naive, Coco, and is appealing to others for support whilst wilfully concealing from them the single most relevant fact, and almost certainly the complete explanation.

Many readers here may be too young to know that the person "Prok" is one of the very, vety few ever permabanned from these forums, ie forbidden and prevented from ever partaking in our discussions again.

She (Prok) still posts hugely on other blogs and forums, and if you are curious about how this permaban was earned, you only need to read a little to get the feel of what the Lindens objected to in this person's attitude to others. Like everything of course there are differeng views, but in the end the Lindens made the decision, and the huge majority of posters at the time seemed to support it.

It could be that the Lindens have decided that any forum-permabanned person can also not avail themselves of any official discussion platform to which forum discussion is now being transferred. It would seem logical to me.

Anyway, the point I am making is that it is really not acceptable to publically appeal for support over someone being censored when you know full well that person is permabanned from joining in here. Not if you neglect to mention this fact, and are speaking to people the majority of whom almost certainly don't know it.

Come on, Coco
"Prok was too direct? Pathfinder just doesn't like him?"
Don't be ridiculous. You know perfectly well this person is BANNED.

Dear Linden Labs, I think you are the most wonderfull company on the planet. Your staff are rays of sunlight in a dark world. Many many thanks for just being you.

This is astonishingly naive, Coco, and is appealing to others for support whilst wilfully concealing from them the single most relevant fact, and almost certainly the complete explanation.

Many readers here may be too young to know that the person "Prok" is one of the very, very few (maybe the only) ever permabanned from these forums, ie forbidden and prevented from ever partaking in our discussions again.

S(he) (Prok) still posts hugely on other blogs and forums, and if you are curious about how this permaban was earned, you only need to read a little to get the feel of what the Lindens objected to in this person's attitude to others. Like everything of course there are differeng views, but in the end the Lindens made the decision, and the huge majority of posters at the time seemed to support it.

It could be that the Lindens have decided that any forum-permabanned person can also not avail themselves of any official discussion platform to which forum discussion is now being transferred. It would seem logical to me.

Anyway, the point I am making is that it is really not acceptable to publically appeal for support over someone being censored when you know full well that person is permabanned from joining in here. Not if you neglect to mention this fact, and are speaking to people the majority of whom almost certainly don't know it.

Come on, Coco
"Prok was too direct? Pathfinder just doesn't like him?"
Don't be ridiculous. You know perfectly well this person is BANNED.

There are many of us being silenced from sharing the truth, and this kind of behaviour WILL backfire on Linden Lab, without a doubt, and probably quite soon.

There is a difference between moderation and censorship.

Lewis

Has it ever been stated that forum bans are automatically taken as blog bans? Not that I'm aware of.

Why is it that we see people crashing the grid and taking part in copyright theft and suchlike and they get a slapped wrist, yet people speaking thier mind in a rational and honest manner get bans?

Something is clearly not working right.

Lewis

Lewis it is already backfiring and not just because of censorship (although that is a large chunk of things). I know several well establish long term members of the community that are simply selling off land tiering down to basic and basically walking away. They may pop in now and again to see if things have improved but count them as lost to the community. It isn't the people that rant on the forums about I am going to leave that LL needs to be worried about. Those people rarely do leave. It's the ones that quietly slip away that hurt and there are more and more of them every day.

Coco is right to be confused here. If LL were being consistant they should have banned that person from making comments totally as they have done here. If you look through the different blog entries, that person was allowed to make comments on other subjects that were not deleted. So what exactly is the deal? It must be what Kyrah said, don't make the post so bitter. They only want others to see nice stuff or keep the negative comments to a minimum.

Either way we have third party web sites that we can take the bile to anyway. Linden Labs are not going to 'waste' their bandwith on us making negative comments.

On the wider issue, I am deeply unhappy about the closing of thne forums, and the shift to blogs, the very format of which prevents non-Lindens from raising topics, and constrains discussion even on those they raise. No rapid scan of topic names, no keyword search (am I right on that ?).

Anyway the blog presents the info in a highly unusable unfriendly format compared with a forum, and this is presumably as deliberate as its ability to preventing us raising topics.

As regards censorship, I would be concerned if calm, courteous on-topic comments by not-banned residents were being removed just because they presented a view contrary to the official one, or offered rationally defensible criticism.

Is there any evidence this is happening ?

I've lost 3 posts so far when all have been honest and rational, and more importantly break no rules.

The only crime - if you can call it that - is that they don't fit in with the love machine philosophy because they are honest.

What's that old saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely? That pretty much sums up Linden Lab right now. I am getting closer and closer to quitting this game every day because of the actions of those running this place.

The sad thing is that they don't even tell you your blog post has been removed, and why it was removed. Evidently they learnt absolutely nothing from the identical mistake they made regarding forum moderation.

Lewis

Well then, Lewis, if that is correct then I AM concerned.

But let's be honest, this is a situation in which our concern is not that relevant, or the change to blog format would not have happened.

Sadly, I have to suggest thet the answer may be that we adjust our perceptions and expectations to fit better with reality.

Maybe the choice is for a censored blog, or a blog with comments disabled altogether, which could happen.

Maybe we just have to accept that all criticism and dissent, however constructive, is no longer welcome publically displayed on a Linden site.

I suppose there is huge scope for as much of it as you like elsewhere.

Personally I shall probably limit any such comments of my own to private communications with Lindens by email. They claim to welcome it, you don't display any dirty washing in public, and in my experience you have a good chance of a reply if you are courteous.

I guess we have to see the Linden policy as "No organising protest meetings on our land please. Individual protests to be quietly posted through the front door".

I don't like it, but it looks as if we have no choice, and upsetting ourselves with inappropriate expectations will do no good at all.

I don't know why so many people think that LL should allow any and all comments on their blog. You have complete and unrestricted freedom of speech on third party sites. You don't need unlimited license on the LL blog, should not expect it, and have no legal or moral right to complain about them moderating it in any way they see fit.

Regardless of how arbitrary or unfair Linden moderation may seem, it is completely within their rights.

For crying out loud, folks. So the blogs are moderated, and the criteria seems somewhat arbitrary and may even seem to some to be driven by personal disputes. So freakin' what?

It is the principle, and the belief that all of us have an equal value in this world.

From the biggest land baron down to the newest unverified newbie, not one of us should be considered more or less important than another.

Yet frequently we see, time and time again, unfair treatment handed out.

At the end of the day, we all want the best for Second Life - otherwise there's no point us being here. How are we supposed to achieve that if we aren't even allowed to be heard - especially when other, more favoured residents, can say the same things and get away with it?

Lewis

I don't think it's about freedom of speech really; it's about display of company attitude that it's not willing to hear feedback from some of their customers based entirely on unspecified personal likes and dislikes of company employees. Which is something that cannot be addressed by posting these comments in different place, instead.

If the company provides tool for gathering feedback, but then selectively listens to it or not no matter actual points raised but just depening on a whim of person who happens to be on duty... then it's just poor show. And leaves hardly any room to defend oneself with "moral right" and whatnot.

I'm glad you are concerned, Elle, because this has absolutely zilch to do with Prok, and never did.

This is not a public appeal for support for Prok, and never was. Take a cue from Cristiano. I think Cristiano would not mind if I state here that he and Prok absolutely and totally despise each other.

Yet Cristiano stands up - NOT for Prok, but for the principle. For us. The same principle I'm concerned about, and that you have now expressed concern about.

I think your take on it is probably about right; that it would be better to send private e-mails. (Or just stop caring altogether, lol.)

I think your idea of disabling the comments altogether is pretty good, too. Why bother to have them? It would be MUCH easier just to have the blogs for the Linden announcements of what they are doing, etc.

Plus it's kind of sickening to see Pathfinder's happy little conversation going on, with him in control as wise assurer that Aaron's worry (the same as Prok's) is nothing to be concerned about - when we all know perfectly well what has really gone on in that thread, and how many posts have been deleted.

You know guys, last night I went to bed after having read the forums, realizing, and hating it, that I was actually starting to agree with those who have been trying to pound it through my head that the Lindens have no intention with any of this other than to muzzle all but their fan boys.

I still can't quite believe that, though, considering the responses sitting in Robin's thread about the forum closure. But the theory is sure starting to gain traction with me.

This morning, I got up and thought something just very simple, and a lot sadder: This just isn't going to work. And by "this," I mean, ultimately, more than just the manner of handling the blogs and trying to substitute them for the forums.

Now, when I see that a person like Lewis has been threatened, I really think this whole thing has gone absolutely too far. I don't know why it has, but it has.

coco

Especially when that is followed up with a threat, from a Linden, that more or less says "dare to question me again and you'll be permanently banned from posting on the blogs".

Lewis

I've now heard the details on Lewis's situation

I'm now convinced that this whole thing, from start to finish, including the outrageous threat, is largely the work of one Linden.

That Linden should lose his Blog privileges, if not be put on probation or terminated from Linden employment entirely.

coco

This is just not some silly game that is insignificant in the lives of a majority of its members, some not all have allot of real life money tied up in it, some make their livelihood from it...Why is LL so shocked that we have intense feelings towards some of the decisions they have made lately ????

HUGE, i repeat HUGE amounts of money pass thru this companies hands each day, and this is how the game was designed to be played, i would assume.

Why do they want to clamp down on any dissention or customers wanting to know why some decisions are being made for them without any concern to their wants or needs ?


I think its a big mistake LL is making, the blogs are designed to be intentionally confusing, propagandaish (is that a word?) and censoring that can not be regulated, you are at the whim of the Linden reading it. The forums are just what the word means, a place to gather ideas and reasoning from other points of view, and believe it or not its OK if everyone does not agree. The forums have been a large part of "A World designed by its residents" its hard to be real designy if your thoughts and questions are quashed.

It's so easy for you people to say this, so easy because it is not you, but others, and more, others whom you dislike, who find themselves targets. So far.

It brings to mind an exchange in Robert Bolt's "A Man for All Seasons":

Roper: So now you’d give the Devil benefit of law.

More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: I’d cut down every law in England to do that.

More: Oh? And when the law was down — and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.

As Prokofy and Lewis are your "devils," so you think nothing of their posts being deleted out of hand. After all, it wasn't you, and what's more, it was those people. The Devil ... so to speak.

Surely, you tell yourself, nobody would ever delete my posts.

Keep telling yourself that.

Did you bother showing even the slightest shred of regard, respect or politeness?

Or was it more of your poison pen "My truth is right, you're doing everything wrong, doomed is coming and it will be your fault." intolerant spewage?

You want people to listen? You want your posts not to get deleted? Learn to adjust the attitude in your posts so that it doesn't put peoples back up like fingernails down a chalkboard.

The truth isn't a baseball bat that gives you special permission to be an arrogant self-centered rightious prig stomping about beating people over the head with your opinions.

Truth is a clearer perspective on reality. If you want anyone to share in your perspective, you have to win them over, not alienate them.

And, it works even better if you try to put yourself in someone else's shoes first.

Try it some time.

Unless, of course, you really get off on being a martyr of sorts.

But then we are not dealing with three year olds that need to have their pill that may be hard to swallow wrapped in the candy because otherwise they'll spit it out and throw a fit.

One would think so, anyway. But then the reaction quite makes you wonder.