Torley's Answer Regarding Posts Removed in the Linden Blogs

Me either.

Because the drama here on the forums is more exciting.

Does that seem right to you?

We complain that they won't listen to us... and yet we can't be bothered to read their blogs?

It'll be more like, 12 hours after the shut down, "We closed the following forums... in an effort to encourage better communication!" blah, blah.

What's the point, Jopsy?

If I post here, my words will have no impact on what LL does.

If I post in a blog, my words will have no impact on what LL does (and might be deleted).

The only meaningful difference is that I can still actually enjoy the community here, for what little time we have left. What could the blogs possibly offer? I can keep up with what's going on in SL without really needing to read them, so there went the one possible reason.

Well, it's not much of an invitation to read them, if you know you're going to read them, spend time writing a response outlining your thoughts, then maybe find your post wiped off the face of the blog as if you were so much dirt on the bottom of their shoe.

On the other hand, I think this situation will improve. I really don't think that what Pathfinder is doing (and maybe other Lindens) is going to become a common situation, regardless of how Torley thinks that's just dandy.

I think it will improve because . . . well, because You Just Can't Do That to People. It's as simple as that.

And if they do continue to do that to people, to their CUSTOMERS yet, then no one would want to read their blogs at all, much less reply. Most people don't hang around for long where they are treated poorly.

Even this "we're the only game in town" business can only stretch so far.

coco

Since these are personal blogs, I really see no problem. I'd certainly moderate comments on my blog, lest it turn into a flamefest like certain peoples' have. It's a personal diary; you should be able to moderate the content. Blogs have an author, and that author can choose their moderation policies; many would prefer to keep the content positive, and given free speech, that is their option, as it would be owned by them. If people want to leave it anonymously open? That's the owner's option as well.

Blogs != forums, period.

That said, any resident should be afforded the same opportunity to express their views, and choose their own moderation practices. I've never seen LL threaten Prokofy, for example, for anything in his blog, although it certainly contains many negative elements, posts that would be considered "bad for marketing", if not outright defamation of character.

Regards,

-Flip

I've no quarrel with you... I just found the contradiction amusing.

It's not about freedom of speech. It's about decorum.

Posts that have been deleted, were deleted because the posters were being asses.

The only right these asses have is to take their money elsewhere.

I work in a radio station. Just because someone bought a 30 second spot, does not entitle them to say whatever they want, whenever they want to say it.

I understand that, but my point is that even though it may seem that way on the surface, there's really no contradiction. I've simply given up on the Lindens altogether, so they no longer factor into my decisions at all. They're going to do whatever they're doing to do regardless, so it's basically pointless to do anything but just amuse myself and share information with other residents.

My sentiments (almost) exactly.

Redundancy, pointlessness, misunderstandings and likely several other factors also may result in a blog reply not getting through moderation I'm sure, not all responses get filtered out just cause they sounded like the author was being an asshat.

Flipper, you are exactly right that the blogs are personal blogs, and are obviously treated as such by their writers, with the exception that each Linden can treat ANOTHER Linden's personal blog as his own, too. Which is pretty wild.

That they are nothing but personal diaries is exactly what people have been saying when they point out that the blogs are no improvement on communication.

That we can talk elsewhere (imagine that! We should be grateful, right?) is irrelevant. I have a right to express myself to my bathroom mirror, too. That's not the issue.

coco

I don't consider the following to be being an asshat:

___________

"Thanks for competing with your own residents once again, Linden Lab! I can’t imagine that the sinks from this effort would at all make that big a dent in the inflationary problems of SL.

And there are rental agents who already rent whole sims (I’m not one of them) and now you’ve essentially killed off their market.

As for the idea of creating “untouched wilderness,” you’re also stepping on resident initiative, time, trouble, toil, and expense, too.

For example: Some of us have worked over a year to create and maintain the SL Public Land Preserve with some 50,000 m2 at some 20 locations with different kinds of activity on it, ranging from enjoying wilderness and seeing historic builds to having activities available like boating, camping, art work display, games, free vending, etc., see Botany’s Grove: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Carlisle/114/76/23/

We raise donations of tier and cash, and it’s been a struggle — we’ve gotten perhaps 20-25 percent of the cost covered each month which is actually remarkable I think given how difficult it can be to sustain group projects in SL.

But now, we’re competing with the ability of Linden land to put out 6 sims instantly and use all of its own marketing capacity to draw avatars to it. It’s yet another example of why trying to make a free market for business to flourish, and a free civil society for people to contribute and help each other, is so amazingly hard in Second Life — our efforts are constantly displaced and undone by “the federal government.”

___________

Now go take a look at, say, 50 or 60 of the irate and disgusted responses to Robin's blog on closing the forums and tell me how those are so much better.

Better to be honest and just say, as others have, "I personally think this PERSON is an asshat, and I think all his posts should be deleted no matter what he says."

If LL really does insist on reserving reserve the right to do that - to be that arbitrary, and to decide for the rest of us in advance what they think will "add to our lives" and what won't, and delete posts for no real good reason - then their entire blogs will become irrelevant and viewed as a sham, which will ultimately harm their platform, too.

coco

P.S. I think we should probably wait for the top brass to get back from Memorial Day weekend before concluding that this is really going to be the way it's going to be.

I think what it amounts to is a series of mistakes, with Torley coming in to try to make it look acceptable. I don't think these mistakes will be repeated in the future.

The blogs are a sham. I thought that was self-evident.

*shrug*

I disagree.


Offensive sarcasm: "Thanks for competing with your own residents once again, Linden Lab! I can’t imagine that the sinks from this effort would at all make that big a dent in the inflationary problems of SL.

Exageration: And there are rental agents who already rent whole sims (I’m not one of them) and now you’ve essentially killed off their market.

Victim Ploy: As for the idea of creating “untouched wilderness,” you’re also stepping on resident initiative, time, trouble, toil, and expense, too.

(Think anyone from LL is still reading this post past this point?)

Shamless plug: For example: Some of us have worked over a year to create and maintain the SL Public Land Preserve with some 50,000 m2 at some 20 locations with different kinds of activity on it, ranging from enjoying wilderness and seeing historic builds to having activities available like boating, camping, art work display, games, free vending, etc., see Botany’s Grove: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Carlisle/114/76/23/

Pride: We raise donations of tier and cash, and it’s been a struggle — we’ve gotten perhaps 20-25 percent of the cost covered each month which is actually remarkable I think given how difficult it can be to sustain group projects in SL.

(Remaining valid points probably never read because the reader got annoyed and gave up on this post early on)


I think the point of the blogs is for LL to disseminate information to us. Not for us to use them to communicate with each other. The theater of "standing up to The Man" that the forums have become is little better than a bunch of grafitti-ist's painting buildings downtown. Sure there's artistry to it... but the intent is to piss off "the establishment", and I'm sure it succeeds.




Considering the time of day in CA, that sounds quite reasonable.

I don't think it's accurate... this is by no means "personal blogs". The thing discussed is presented literally as "The Official Blog of Linden Lab". Not "What Joe, John and Mary do each on their own in their spare time". While it does have individual authors who sign articles with their names, it's claimed to be company information page provided to allow efficient dialogue with SL residents and convenient information point.

A personal blog is e.g. Torley's site she maintains in her spare time in addition to this official thing. And there yes, she can do literally as she pleases as that's strictly personal web page. But what each Linden does in this official thing reflects directly on their company, because here they all operate under the single "Linden Lab" label o.o;

it is true that a blog is a personal document, although this one differs form typical ones in the ways already pointed out.

The fact is that it is touted as the alternative to the Forums for "dialogue", with implications that it becomes one of the main mechanisms for feedback that the Lindens are going to use to listen to their citizens.

The question might be, how does what they are planning to do in the blogs differ from moderation of a Forum thread? And there seem to be a couple. First, it doesn't sound like there are any guidelines or standards for them to adhere to, if they can treat it like a "family room" and base inclusion on whatever each Linden deems appropriate. Second, ANY Linden can delete posts from ANY Linden's blog. So, theoretically, we have to be acceptable in ALL family rooms to be acceptable in any of them.

Now, to be fair, it may just be that LL hasn't figured out yet how they are going to run the blogs, and once they do, they will put in some guideline that ensure that participation in the blogs can't be arbitrarily restricted.

But more likely, they are probably just sick of listening to ppl. Let's be honest, there is always a pantload of crap in the forums - some self-serving, some flameworthy, some just mindnumbingly stupid. Of course, that is half the fun...

Having only recently started participating in these forums myself, it's not like I am really going to miss them. I guess I will choose to remain optimistic that people with a cogent argument and legitimate point can find ways to be heard by the Lindens and the other citizens of SL.

I wonder what would happen if someone wrote a letter to the Lindens - like on paper. Hmmmm...

I think part of the problem is too many Lindens running around moderating everything.

They can remove a post before the blog writer has even seen it, and I have this from a Linden that it has happened to him.

The Lindens who write the blog should tell the others if they don't want this happening. I know if I had a blog, I'd want to at least see the posts, and then decide whether I thought they should be deleted or not.

coco

P.S. Jopsy, Aaron Levy posed the same issue, and I don't think he was being a victim or performing theater, either. They were reasonable points to raise. GOM'ing things is a real problem.

wow

this is some productive-ass material

I won't deny that... there are plenty of legit concerns, and people are passionate about espousing them.

I think the larger root problem here is that the proportion of Linden response to the volume of resident posts makes posters assume that they have to resort to verbally abusing the Linden team in order to provoke a response.

Nothing like verbally attacking someone to win them over to your own way of thinking, of course.



When I was absorbing a fair bit of ill will a while back (it was my job at the time), after a few moments of someone's haranging tirade I sometimes asked: "Are you complaining, venting or bitching?"

"What's the difference?"

"To me, Complaining means you want ME to take action to fix what you're talking about. You probably won't like my solution but you're asking me for one.

"Venting means you need to blow off steam so you can get back to focusing, and you do NOT want me to meddle with the problem that's bothering you.

"If you're just bitching you probably blame me for something and/or it means you know neither of us can do anything about it and you're wasting our time and my patience."

Most quickly learned to say they were venting.

If they were personal blogs, I'd agree 100%. But these are NOT personal blogs. these blogs are written by their various authors in their role as employees and mouthpieces of Linden Labs.

If they aren't personal blogs, someone tell me what a pesonal blog is doing on a corporate website? Shouldn't LL being dismissing them for stealing corporate bandwidth from the company if they were truly personal blogs?

Soon I won't be reading this anymore.

And, to think, there was a time when I was an atheist.

Eh. Your idealism is wasted. LL was never *not* a corperation. Personaly, I find that having a blog moderated for constructivism is a good thing. If you want to bitch and moan (as we are all want to do at times), do it elsewhere. Now, if LL was censoring constructive posts (I think Prok's post stradeled that line, if not crossed it), then I would have a problem.
Also, the blog allows us to hear from Lindens other than Torley and Robin, which is cool, because a lot of them "lurk in the shadows."

Nothing we do or say can undo this and LL doesnt care. To Top it all off one of my friends in SL just got their account deleted cuz someone go jelous of them for some reason and used a bunch of alt accounts to abuse report him and get him banned. I will never see this friend again now unless he creates alts (and i think hash bans already took effect). I Swear LL neads to shape up and get a better abuse reporting system before everyones banned for life.

LL has made so many mistakes and idiotic choices lately it's a wonder why were all still here anyway... If there was a rival to SL that was either as good or much better, i would definatly move to it and PAY THEM MONEY for access and land. I know i've said this before but eventually i'm going to leave cuz of LL's horrible business practices... I used to think anshechung.com was bad but thats small potatoes compared to the shit LL is doing lately. My opinion will be spoken from now on until LL starts to do things right for a change.

Seems like I got a post there removed as well with no warning.

Evidently the truth hurts, and they don't want people to know.

Lewis

Yep that was their plan. :/ They wana look good to the public eye and will do anything to make that happen.