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Have the sweatshops found us? |
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
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03-25-2005 13:08
_____________________
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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03-25-2005 13:09
The ugly truth is that the machine of capitalism runs on the bones and blood of the poor. Always has, always will. The sad part is that, for most of those poor, being grist is actually an improvement in life circumstance.
If any of you are familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, you understand that when you're cold, hungry, and wearing tatters, you don't care if it is a sweatshop... you just care that you're able to get warm, eat, and have your body clothed protectively. Here's a thought for you -- if every person who wanted to change the world actually did something for someone in their immediate sphere of influence, there would be no poverty. I think that is the saddest thought of all. _____________________
Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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03-25-2005 13:14
The ugly truth is that the machine of capitalism runs on the bones and blood of the poor. Always has, always will. The sad part is that, for most of those poor, being grist is actually an improvement in life circumstance. If any of you are familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, you understand that when you're cold, hungry, and wearing tatters, you don't care if it is a sweatshop... you just care that you're able to get warm, eat, and have your body clothed protectively. Here's a thought for you -- if every person who wanted to change the world actually did something for someone in their immediate sphere of influence, there would be no poverty. I think that is the saddest thought of all. So very true Cienna! _____________________
David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery |
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Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
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03-25-2005 13:27
The ugly truth is that the machine of capitalism runs on the bones and blood of the poor. Always has, always will. The sad part is that, for most of those poor, being grist is actually an improvement in life circumstance. If any of you are familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, you understand that when you're cold, hungry, and wearing tatters, you don't care if it is a sweatshop... you just care that you're able to get warm, eat, and have your body clothed protectively. It doesn't hurt to look into the practices of the stores and companies from which you buy, though I think it's hard for the general public to obtain accurate information on this subject. _____________________
Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre
Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 |
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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03-25-2005 14:28
whenever we buy low-cost goods and clothing at stores like Walmart, Target, etc., we are feeding the need for sweatshops. I'm as guilty of this as anybody else. You provide people in poor country some opportunity... I used to make an attempt to buy American ...which is 100 times better than even deny them that small opportunity by becoming protectionist. I know you try help, but I fear by "buy American" you make things even worse. _____________________
ANSHECHUNG.COM: Buy land - Sell land - Rent land - Sell sim - Rent store - Earn L$ - Buy L$ - Sell L$
SLEXCHANGE.COM: Come join us on Second Life's most popular website for shopping addicts. Click, buy and smile  |
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Charlotte Gillespie
2 - 0 Lindens
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,101
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03-25-2005 14:31
Don't be a protectionist - buy British!
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Persig Phaeton
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 49
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03-25-2005 14:42
You provide people in poor country some opportunity... ...which is 100 times better than even deny them that small opportunity by becoming protectionist. I know you try help, but I fear by "buy American" you make things even worse. First of all, Anshe, I want to thank you for ballancing this discussion and giving us your own view on this. A lot of us in the West, myself included, generally look on this activity as exploitation, so your perspective of "opportunity" is refreshing. Let's set all ethical considerations aside for a second though. Do you truly feel that this influx of poor from other countries is an immediate threat to your business and that SL is truly an opportunity for them? I ask because, as several people have pointed out, it took more than hard work for you to achieve the earnings you did. It took a lot of business savy in general and Second Life knowledge in specific for you to pull this off. What you do is far from "unskilled labor". Wouldn't the Second Life world have to change considerably before unskilled labor from other countries could pose any kind of serious threat to your own business? Is there a potential "easy" market I'm missing? Persig |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-25-2005 14:42
You provide people in poor country some opportunity... still... those sweatshop owners/contractors from rich countries could pay more... no good answers. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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Beryl Greenacre
Big Scaredy-Baby
Join date: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,312
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03-25-2005 14:44
...which is 100 times better than even deny them that small opportunity by becoming protectionist. I know you try help, but I fear by "buy American" you make things even worse. Those of us who have enough to eat, a roof over our heads, health care, good public education and a fairly good standard of living look at sweatshop working conditions and say, "I don't want to reinforce that!" Those in the countries where sweatshops are located, who are economically challenged (read: dirt poor) and scraping to get by on a daily basis, look at sweatshops and see opportunity. It's merely a matter of perspective. As I said, I understand how sweatshops can be looked upon as a way to better oneself if there are no other options. However, sweatshops also affect the world economy by providing mass-produced goods at very low prices. There are many American manufacturing companies that have been put out of business because companies find they can pay somebody in Taiwan or India or Sri Lanka to produce the same goods for much less money. How would the workers at LL who have engineered SL feel if Philip suddenly announced that he was outsourcing all the LL positions to India because he could find people there who would work for 1/5th the cost? How would we, as "consumers" of LL's services, feel about the company? This is a very complex issue. I would never fault anyone for trying to improve their financial position. I also admire those who have the resolve to follow their conscience and only patronize businesses that follow fair labor and trade practices. There are many, many ways to look at this, and I'm sure I'm only scratching the surface when it comes to comprehending it all. _____________________
Swell Second Life: Menswear by Beryl Greenacre
Miramare 105, 82/ Aqua 192, 112/ Image Reflections Design, Freedom 121, 121 |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-25-2005 14:47
"unskilled labor" while (first land available) { get one time cc number; // does this work? create bottom tier account and give referral to master account buy first land sell first land at a profit give all l$ to master account } while (tuesday morning after 1am pst) { open existing account from other loop give stipend to master account } while (master account) { collect money from new accounts collect referrals collect stipends sell l$ on internet } _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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Kathy Yamamoto
Publisher and Surrealist
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 615
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03-25-2005 14:49
I’m not sure what these workers are actually going to do to make money. Up until now, they may have been able to buy and sell land as a commodity, but in a few days, we will have version 1.6 – which will allow us to buy and sell land with improvements – such as housing or landscaping, etc. At this point, I expect to seethe profits of commodity land dealers like Anshe (no offense meant) start to drop off as buyers come to expect a nice little two-story brownstone, or something made to order. Sure, there will be a market for raw land still, but surely not the same as it has been. Right?
I think the market will begin to lean toward the resale of improved lots, and the wealth spreading back to current homeowners more than land speculators. At least I think so  At that point, it’s going to be hard to sweatshop SL, unless they have a group of poor itinerate prim-builders, I guess. Any thoughts? _____________________
Kathy Yamamoto
Quaker's Sword Leftist, Liberals & Lunatics Turtlemoon Publishing and Property turtlemoon@gmail.com |
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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03-25-2005 14:53
The ugly truth is that the machine of capitalism runs on the bones and blood of the poor. Always has, always will. The sad part is that, for most of those poor, being grist is actually an improvement in life circumstance. If any of you are familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Need, you understand that when you're cold, hungry, and wearing tatters, you don't care if it is a sweatshop... you just care that you're able to get warm, eat, and have your body clothed protectively. I agree... Although Maslows Hierarch of Need has, for the most part in academia, been replaced by Dr. Fred Herzbergs Theory of Motivation which states that people are guided by 2 factors: 1. Avoidance of Pain, 2. Psychological Satisfaction. When applied to 'sweatshops', the workers are obviously not working towards psychological satisfaction but are attempting to avoid pain. Pain can take several forms from being real phsyical pain to personal let down/failure, poverty, etc. B. Dawson |
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Charlotte Gillespie
2 - 0 Lindens
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,101
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03-25-2005 14:54
itinerate itinerant |
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Persig Phaeton
Registered User
Join date: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 49
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03-25-2005 14:58
while (true) { get one time cc number; // does this work? create bottom tier account and give referral to master account buy first land sell first land at a profit } while (tuesday morning after 1am pst) { open existing account from other loop give stipend to master account } while (master account) { sell l$ on internet } Hah! I love the pseudocode. Still, considering the finite amount of land and the savvy of people who have been trading it for a while, I can't see a whole lot of these "programs" running simultaneously with any success. Besides, how successful do you suppose the "buy first land" routine will be if there are a thousand of them running at once? There's only so much land and only so many "first" times. This little process may seem simple to you but try teaching it to someone who has never used a computer before... Persig |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-25-2005 15:00
This little process may seem simple to you but try teaching it to someone who has never used a computer before... you only have to teach it once. and as the new sl resident indicates... people can and will learn _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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03-25-2005 15:02
Anshe if you think your job teaching people is safe from outsourcing, think again. It's a very ripe target for outsourcing via distance learning.
In fact, no job is safe. Those jobs which are pure manual labor aren't safe, because a) people who lose their jobs to outsourcing will have to do manual labor, and b) who's going to buy your services if no one is making any money? Fortunately, though *no* job is safe from outsourcing we don't really need to fear outsourcing. What we do need to fear is lack of respect for intellectual property, wasting the worlds energy resources, and similar things. China and India as a powerhouse on the world stage is a very exciting thing, innovation wise. China and India simply copying everything we do and selling it for cheaper is not. Oh yeah, and we *certainly* don't need to fear sweatshops in LL. I mean, please. There are far juicier targets out there than some tiny virtual world. _____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :
"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches." |
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feniks Stone
At the End of the World
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 787
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03-25-2005 15:16
I know you try help, but I fear by "buy American" you make things even worse. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with "BUYING AMERICAN". There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting one's own country's economy. There is something wrong in an attempt to manipulate someone into trying to think there is. There are better ways to enlist others help than resorting to manipulation tactics. fen- _____________________
the gypsy that remains..
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-25-2005 15:21
money laundering schemes i'd been wondering about this for a while. _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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Charlotte Gillespie
2 - 0 Lindens
Join date: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,101
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03-25-2005 15:21
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with "BUYING AMERICAN". There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting one's own country's economy. There is something wrong in an attempt to manipulate someone into trying to think there is. There are better ways to enlist others help than resorting to manipulation tactics. fen- did no one ever tell you it was Phoenix?  |
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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03-25-2005 15:53
I agree... Although Maslows Hierarch of Need has, for the most part in academia, been replaced by Dr. Fred Herzbergs Theory of Motivation which states that people are guided by 2 factors: 1. Avoidance of Pain, 2. Psychological Satisfaction. When applied to 'sweatshops', the workers are obviously not working towards psychological satisfaction but are attempting to avoid pain. Pain can take several forms from being real phsyical pain to personal let down/failure, poverty, etc. B. Dawson The Herzberg Theory seems over-simplified to me, and doesn't (to my mind) adequately cover social behaviors. The reality of sweatshops is one of pure capitalistic influence. For this, there is no one to blame but the corporates who pursue profit at the expense of humanity at every given decision gate. People will do as a collective things they would shudder to so much as contemplate as individuals. That doesn't say much for collectives, yet they are the fundamental building block of any society. What does that say about society? _____________________
Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
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Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
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03-25-2005 15:57
I'm puzzled about the mechanics of how somebody makes land sales here a "sweatshop". It doesn't seem to lend itself to "sweatshop" conditions.
Anyone able to get the computer, hardware, and Internet connection for this game is already not a sweatshop owner in the sense of the textiles industry, but rather an electronic boiler-room type who has fancy equipment, and intelligent, educated employees who, even if they are poor, would have to be educated to work the levers of the computers and the game. So I'm thinking Russia, India, China. I've never encountered any Russians being sweated in SL, although it will come in its day because it is a nation full of unemployed geeks and fantasists who love the Internet. But let's try to walk through what would actually be "sweatshoppy" about selling land? Selling land is a skilled operation requiring a certain amount of savvy, skill, luck, etc. to work the auctions, figure the margins, seize the opportunities in world. So it doesn't mean you can take someone with broken English who is young and clueless and work them doing that -- unless you have them just taking pictures of land to upload to the lists or some menial facent of the operation. So how does this work? It's funny how everyone gets all indignant about this girl being exploited by a boss we can't seem to learn any detail about, but when role-playing in the game leads to the same kind of dominating relationship with another player, everyone gives it a pass. I don't buy Anshe's analysis of the sweatshop as the gateway to the middle class, whatever the realities. I don't see why Westerners should proclaim human rights for themselves, but short them on Easterners as their ticket to the middle class. _____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
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03-25-2005 16:21
As some of you are probably aware, other MMO* titles over the years have had to deal with an influx of actual sweatshops in third-world contries. These sweatshops force young, underpaid workers to play games like Everquest, not for enjoyment, but solely for the purpose of harvesting gold to be traded out and items to be eBay'ed. It's never been a problem here since there's no simple "treadmill" for earning money and items. Last night, however, I had a disturbing experience. A girl at a telehub asked me to help her buy land in very broken English. After struggling for a while to communicate how to use "land for sale" on the map, I could tell she was having trouble and she was in distress. Finally, she blurts something like, "Please to be helping me! If I don't buy land in 3 days, my boss will fire me!" At first I was like, "You're kidding me, right?" Nope. She said she was Chinese and she was quite serious that she needed to by land but she was totally clueless on SL or how to use it. After struggling for a while longer I thought, "Anshe!" Now, before I go any further, I'd like to ask PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THIS WORLD CAN WE NOT MAKE THIS THREAD A FLAMEWAR ABOUT ANSHE! PRETTY PLEASE?! WITH SUGAR ON TOP?! Ok, thanks. So, I'm only aware of Anshe because of all the free press she gets in these forums, but I contacted her and asked if she would help. She teleported us both to her location and quickly she and the girl began talking to eachother in Chinese. There wasn't much for me to do any more and they were pretty busy talking so I left. I assume Anshe helped this poor girl get things straightened out but, in looking back on the event, it disturbed me DEEPLY. Has anyone else had run-ins of this nature? Is anyone else aware of this kind of attempted brute force money extraction taking place here? It seems like something that merits the community's attention. And before the accusations start flying, I am not an alt for Anshe and I've never met her before last night. I ask again, that we keep this serious and not turn this into an opportunity to talk sh*t about Anshe. Regardless of how busy she was she helped me and that girl last night. Persig sounds like another SCAM to me. Oh what's next "if you dont giveme please L$100 my brother will be killed" files this one under; "Give me a break" Dont give these ppl the time of day its plain bullshit anyway I look at it. _____________________
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
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03-25-2005 16:25
I’m not sure what these workers are actually going to do to make money. Up until now, they may have been able to buy and sell land as a commodity, but in a few days, we will have version 1.6 – which will allow us to buy and sell land with improvements – such as housing or landscaping, etc. At this point, I expect to seethe profits of commodity land dealers like Anshe (no offense meant) start to drop off as buyers come to expect a nice little two-story brownstone, or something made to order. Sure, there will be a market for raw land still, but surely not the same as it has been. Right? I think the market will begin to lean toward the resale of improved lots, and the wealth spreading back to current homeowners more than land speculators. At least I think so At that point, it’s going to be hard to sweatshop SL, unless they have a group of poor itinerate prim-builders, I guess. Any thoughts? Agreed so the smart move would be to buy up any land at this point, make improvements on it and sell it. Looks to me like the develped land is going to go for double of what the raw land was bought for. Nice little business if you know how to build. _____________________
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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03-25-2005 16:31
Some things:
1) Maslow's and Herzberg's theories are but two in a welter of constructs trying to explain human motives in foundational terms. You pays your money and you chooses. Such is the nature of scholarship in the postmodern world. Throw Trotsky, Mao, and Gramsci into the mix, however, and you'll be reminded how suspicious, self-destructive, and bloodthirsty the oppressed can be. After you "save" them from the oppressor, the story doesn't end. They must "save" themselves. Part of the difficulty of do-gooding. 2) Also worth noting that 120 years ago, sweatshops were the norm in the U.S. and other western nations. It's a stage in the process of the industrial revolution; sweatshops will disappear in Mexico, Brazil, China, or Pakistan as the IR progresses, automation develops, and the need for skilled labor and professionalism rises. Which is why I asked the question before about broadband and computer skills. Is this sort of "virtual sweatshopping" different because it requires a higher level of infrastructure and skills? 3) Not "everyone" is indignant about the circumstance that surfaced on this thread; but certain people are engaging in their usual hysterical hyperboles. Personally, I'm searching for illumination, and the perspectives in this thread are very interesting. One perspective remains missing, however, and that is the "official" one. Someone said that concerns have been expressed to LL, but gave no details. Someone else said there wasn't much they could do, and a couple of people suggested that they shouldn't do much, as such endeavors may provide the global poor with opportunities. Good points, all. But I'll ask again, what is LL's sense of policy here, if any? Or, is there even a need for a policy? I tend to think Kathy Yamamoto is correct: it will be difficult to exploit virtual worlds in traditional ways. edited for a typo |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,955
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03-25-2005 16:32
Money for nothing
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Michele_Mandel/2005/03/13/959227.html (with mention of sl even) http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1436411,00.html (same acticle) http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/TechNews/TechAtHome/2005/03/13/960537-sun.html (same article) They play games for 10 hours in a 'virtual sweatshop' http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=199469&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/ Will the Real Virtual Sweatshop Please Stand Up? http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/02/will_the_real_v.html Blizzard Bans Gold Farmers http://internetgames.about.com/b/a/153186.htm _____________________
AIDS IS NOT OVER. people are still getting aids. people are still living with aids. people are still dying from aids. please help me raise money for hiv/aids services and research. you can help by making a donation here: http://www.aidslifecycle.org/1409 .
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