Name2Key Database

no no posture some more .. you're the only one around here that gives posturing a good name.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

~Ulrika~

Wow, now thats a cock strut.
------------------pea^

Why is everybody going on about poisoning a name2key database ?

If a name2key function arises the database is already there and unable to be poisoned - you use it everytime you go into SL (how do you think find , friends, and anything involving names and keys works ?)

THE INFORMATION IS ALREADY STORED ON THE DATABASE

A name2key function would be a simple query function sent to the database.

To avoid spamming is the issue.

Again - everyone is thinking RL - If someone spams you in RL you have very little recourse police ? Govenment ? Supplier ? Dont make m elaugh )

In SL there is one all seeing all powerful government LINDENS

To get into SL you need an account - abuse that account you dont get in anymore - fairly simple politics.

Accounts can be tracked to credit cards and IP addresses - so before you say - "yeh but someone can get thrown and come back in again" - it would take a fairly desperate annoyer to try and bother in SL - for what ? A million Linden (I think Lindens might notice that sort of money going adrift)

Adding a privacy function so that your name/key cannot be found via a search would be simplicity itself with options that bar all queries, bar non-friends, bar - but inform of search, or just inform then choose bar further communication.

So i really do not see why everybody is getting there knickers in a twist - if Lindens want to introduce it they will ( and if enough people ask for it ) - and i am sure they will introduce something that is handled safely and non-intrusively, as to be frank - SL is their business.

If people dont like it - they don't come here ( I just wish RL had the same option)

Well said alt.

Ulrika, I applaud your support of market commerce and advertising in SL. I think it's so important that those who have been associated with Marxian-type ideologies in the past begin to turn the corner and modernize their old ideologies for the new world in cyberspace.

Robust, full-throated market capitalism is the only solution for the metaverse.

I'm glad you concede the need for aggressive advertising in today's competitive online environment and have taken the time to think about the little guy, i.e. the small businessman as distinct from the large businessman.

When we can see more and more people realizing that capitalist-type ideologies just plain work better than socialist-type ideologies especially in cyberspace, why, I think we'll just be on our way to that much of a better world.

What you're showing us is that with a little bit of attention to consumer rights (i.e. opt-out options) and small business (public keys), we can restrain the excesses of capitalism without having to reject capitalism in favour of an old-fashioned and inapplicable socialism on the Internet.

What a load of claptrap.

This is an example of capitalism before anything. Before privacy, before asking permission, before respect.

Opt out is a joke. Do your reading, it's as often a tool to just redirect the user to another list and/or validate that info as it is a way of getting off the list.

I also find it interesting that these list builders had to see outcry before actually putting the opt out in. They didn't consider it before compiling the list.

Spammers do not remove people from lists. I have obviously requested numerous times that I want nothing to do with any of these lists and I do not want my name to appear on them in any way shape or form, not with blank keys, not with anything.

The creators completely disregard my wishes. They tell me it's allowed, so they'll do it, in spite of the fact that I vehemently want nothing to do with it. When I think of this, I feel despair, and a loss of control over things that I invest in and consider solely for my use. People like this don't understand things like, please don't take my picture. They'll do it anyway because it's not against the law and you can't stop them with what you'd like to do, which is break that camera over their head.

If I want nothing to do with it, why am I being forced to do so? Why does my name continue to appear on these lists? Because LL said they can do it. So anybody that wants off can go fuck themselves.

LL has simply put the spammer into business in SL. Any denial of this is futile. They are enabling the most difficult part of a spammers job, collecting and validating the data into a usable list. Spammers are amazingly inventive and it is inevitable that violations will begin, and LL will be powerless to stop them in spite of their statements.

It's only a matter of time. And people like Ulrika, who refuse to respect the wishes of fellow residents, are to blame.

I don't pay for this service and don't want it forced on me. I am not a vendor. I want nothing to do with any of these bullshit "value added" services, which is exactly what Gator or any other adware tells you. How people can be blind to this is beyond me, it happens around you every day.

Again, your 1st Life profile is, according to LL's frequently used definition, "public info". I am free to collect it and compile it into a list, which when cross referenced with a name/key list, reveals some remarkable info.

I have not seen them say otherwise.

LOL! I was thinking the same thing!

You have a poor understanding of what Socialism actually is. Personally, I'm a Social Democrat. Social Democrats believe that the transition to a socialist society can be achieved through democratic evolutionary rather than revolutionary means. They emphasize a program of gradual legislative reform of the capitalist system in order to make it more equitable, usually with the goal of a socialist society as a theoretical endpoint. With regards to Communism, Marx considered it as the next logical step in industrial capitalism by giving the workers control of the means of production.

So, Capitalism is an integral part of both Socialism and Communism (not to be confused with the Communist or Soviet State).

Looking at your quote above, you are spot-on except for the final conclusion. I am applying the principles of Social Democracy of seeking equity through reform of the capitalist system. However, the principles of social democracy work wonderfully on the internet, as evidenced by your approval of my actions.

~Ulrika~

Missing the point again. Probably deliberately.

llSetText, Textures with SL, LSL, llSensor, llShout, llIM, all the rest of it.

These are elements that function WITHIN SL. You can not advertise child porn with llSetText to people that do not subscribe and pay for SL. Therefore, the Lindens are accountable for what they allow, and their control can be absolute.

The data is created within SL by private subscribers. It exists and is useful to people within the privately owned domain of SL. That's what I'm a member of, that's what I pay for, that's what it should be confined to.

Bottomfeeding listbuilding practices that force people to be involved in a service they want nothing to do with on the public internet has nothing to do with llSetText, so your example is flawed.

This is the way I see it.

LL owns the data. Not you, not me, not Ulrika.

I pay LL for the right to use that data, which is my original creation. No other avatar can have the same name. Within the confines of SL, it is unique and associated entirely with me. Until I am banned or quit, which may be soon the way this is going, that data is reserved entirely for my use within SL, and other residents ONLY WITHIN SL may access and use it.

SL is a private, closed community, which individual people pay to access. There is nothing "public" about it at all. By allowing list building practices, LL is essentially releasing control of that data, and their accountability for the use of it, for free, to any and all takers. That doesn't sound like the original deal to me.

People like Ulrika have no respect for any of this at all. They are privateers of the worst kind. They enter this privately owned community, take data that I pay for the use of and created and which is unique to me within SL, and without my, or your, or LLs prior consent, or concerns for privacy, publish it for all the world to see. This is because they are right, I am wrong, and concerns of spam or privacy invasion are nothing more than psychotic hysteria.

There is NO other use for this data other than to spam people. If it was "for members only", then people would have to sign up. The reason they do not do this is that they know it would not work, so they force it on you, whether or not you want anything at all to do with it.

I paid LL to create that avatar, it's name, and it's key. It is for MY use, and for use within the SL environment. That was the deal. And LL now is allowing filth like Ulrika's list to violate it.

LL should clearly state, and from what I've seen can potentially be forced to (I am looking into this), that being a member of SL means that your avatars name and in-world key, an inventory of what you own, your first life profile, and any other data that is created by users in the world, can be published by anybody (not just LL), for any reason, anywhere, be it within SL, or outside of it. LL absolves themselves of all responsibility for anything at all that is done with this data, including but not confined to, external spamming and/or any other sort of contact that may occur as a result of the publication of that list, in spite of the fact that they originally are responsible for the creation of, and originally owned, that data. Once it leaves SL, LL retracts all creation and ownership rights and responsibilities of every and any kind.

It would be very interesting if LL would be honest about this up front (they are not), and to see how it would effect their membership and reviews. Which is undoubtedly why they keep it hush hush and don't publish any policy statements regarding it.

I do most fervently hope that this comes back to bite LL in the ass, and that they are eventually forced to forbid use of in-world data, which they own, in this way. And if I can be a part of that, all the better.

People can now scan land data and publish how much land you own in game, which gives people a very good idea how much money you are willing to spend (or have to spend) on online games and envronments. That's just one example. You would be absolutely amazed at what you can infer when you start chaining together data that is just laying around in SL, and cross referencing it with those lists and the web.

The data of avatar names and keys is useless outside of SL.

Sure, I could build an application which would allow some EVIL CORPORATION to send an instant message to everyone on my life. I'd also be banned by the time a few hundred of these got out. It would also be counterproductive to what everyone using these lists would want to do. I still don't see the correllary, and frankly, your insulting tone and continued use of parallels to us scripters as spammers is tired. You continue to drivel on about how spammers do this and spammers do that. I've ALREADY removed you from my list, Ulrika has done the same. So there goes about 75% or your arguments in this thread about us being spammers... because by your definition, spammers never remove you from their lists.

Anyway, its all moot. The Lindens have decided.

Regards,

-Flip

I have not seen a formal policy statement regarding reverse engineering portions of software and/or releasing ownership and rights of data that are taken from within SL and published externally for anybody and everybody to use.

A forum post in a general thread topic by Robin does not qualify.

I have emailed Philip and Robin with objections to this, and have filed an abuse report related to in world privacy, and have not heard anything. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume this is because they haven't decided exactly how to deal with it yet, and for now, have decided to just take the path of least resistance and let it slide.

I believe Robin was just giving you the "currently known" state.

However, it does look like it's going that way. And that doesn't make anything "moot", I can still examine ways to apply pressure to have that decision modified. I have an attorney friend, and he is not of the opinion that LL can simply release themselves of any and all responsibility of how that data gets used if they allow it to be published externally. Stating, "nothing can be done with it outside of SL" is obviously flawed, since I have already validated that a spammer can successfully obtain email addresses using it, and also, if nothing can be done with it, people wouldn't be doing it.

Consider that 40k names on a list gives you 40k account names that people use to sign in, and which would otherwise not be available. Unless somebody in world tells somebody out world that my last name is "Bach", they would never know what to put in that "last name" blank. Now all that needs to be done is dictionary the passwords. It makes it MUCH easier/ three blanks now cut to one. And with that nice list, all the better.

Anyway, that's my new thing. You are publishing my account data. Everything but the password. And yes, I very much do own that account. And Ulrika is obtaining that data from files that are part of a commercial software program. That is exactly how I have modified my letter to her provider.

In the post above you mention that "you own that account"

I beg to differ

You do not own an account you lease it, much like when you "buy" a piece of virtual land within SL you are merely leasing it from LL.
( If LL were to double their subscription charge - you could not take "your" land or "your" account elsewhere - it is a misconception)

If you owned the account it would take a court order to have that account taken away from you, whereas Lindon's can revoke it at anytime they want and for whatever reason.

Any thing you create within Sl is intellectually yours - although again you do not "own" the data - you lease the space the data takes - you own the intellectual concept of the object you created.

And if you are worried about people tying your sl name to your 1st life name and spamming you - there is a very simple solution -

DO NOT PUT ANY TRACEABLE DETAILS IN YOUR 1ST LIFE PAGE

(When you log into a chat room - do you publish your home address phone number, full name, location, and correct primary email account for the world to see ? No you do not )

SL is basically a chat room with graphical landscapes and avatars.


And as for the socialist, marxist, lennonist, democracy whatever politics you believe are being created within SL - take the same argument to microsofts chats room and see how far you are laughed out of the neighbourhood.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

Shame someone shot him.

I know lenons songs too - it doesnt make me political

SL IS A ROLE PLAYING GAME (Note the last word)

Keep the politics in RL dont dissect SL into factions and camps - allow it to be what it is

Harmless enjoyment.

I've read a great many strong opinions in this thread, all sorts of excited government analogies, harsh words, etc., etc. After all that, I still don't know where the beef is.

What, and I mean specifically, are the advantages for a "small web-based SL retailer" who has access to such a list? What disadvantages does the small retailer currently suffer from? It's all well and good to say that they'll have equal access to this resource, but that does nothing to explain what they'll do with it once they have that access.

Since spamming will result in an immediate shutdown and ban by the Lindens, there must be some other use for these lists. What is it, exactly?


Gydeon.

Well, if I were a name to key database maintainer, I would set up my system so it verifys new mappings with llRequestAgentData(key, DATA_NAME) when they're added. If an invalid mapping is found, it would just remove it from the database. Simple as pie.
==Chris

Hello Christopher. How's my favorite SLer?

I've already had someone send me the code but I've yet to use it. I'm soo busy with my other project right now. If anyone would like to help validate the keylist, I'd be happy to incorporate their changes. If not, I'll get around to it eventually.

~Ulrika~

Gydeon,

Web based services, such as the shopping sites, need a way to be able to associate an account to an avatar (link) and the send items to that avatar. Additionally, an extremely popular feature of store sites is sending a gift to a friend. The linking and sending to a friend both require a key to use. That is why most of the web shopping sites make new customers go to an ATM machine somewhere on the grid after they sign up for an account, so that they can link their account to their avatar. GOM is another example that does the same thing - you have to link your GOM account to your avatar by going to a GOM terminal.

Now, with a key database, the linking step becomes easier and more convenient to a shopper, and the send a gift feature becomes possible. If you have a key database, when the user goes to your site and signs up as Bob Foo, you already have Bob Foo's key so you can send an item to them directly in SL that they can take out and click on to verify their account. No going to a terminal. SecondServer.net uses this approach, and it is what first drew me to that site for shopping, since I didn't have to go all over hell finding some stupid ATM. Additionally, I could easily send gifts to friends just by putting in their names, because the key is available, even if they have not yet registered for the site. Otherwise, I would only be able to send a gift to another registered user.

The question of why a new retailer would be at a disadvantage against existing competitors is that the linking step is horribly inconvenient for customers. It is a barrier to impulse buying. If I am on a site and I want to buy something, I should not have to go find some terminal to do so. If I am already registered and linked on another site, it is just easier to use them than to go through this process all over again. With a key database, it levels the field - it is just as convenient to buy from a new site without much hassle.

As more and more functionality moves outside of the SL servers, these lists become important since we lack a Name2Key service. There is a small group of people who are passionate to the point of hysteria about these key lists not being public, but there are very useful and compelling reasons for them to exist. Hopefully it will become moot and there will be a simpler way to just get keys as we need them - this will cut down on the theoretical spam argument, and serve the purpose the databases are needed for - spontaneously having access to a key to be able to send an item or message to a user.

A new account I physically watched being made (in RL) watched go through the orientation, to the WA - then off to the sandbox.

Next day - they received an inventory item while off line - from someone I can guarrantee wasn't there -- straight up NEVER even saw their avatar. This account had NO calling cards at this point.

What did they get? A folder full of assorted freely available items, and an adverstisement.

I'm not saying that this collection is in anyway responsible - but putting up for consideration that the spam issue is ALREADY happening..

What impact will this have? Who knows.

Personally I'm gonna neg AND grief the living shit outta anyone that spams me - and fuck the TOS.

Siggy.

I kinda agree with siggy.... and I never impulse buy. When I need or want something I know how to use Find and locate what Im after and go buy it. I will also neg anyone that sends me crap.

Yup - I have never bought a thing in RL from anyone that sends me spam email, junk mail, or other promotions.

Now don't get me wrong - if I fly over someones property and they send me a notecard (as has happened in the past, but not so much anymore) I sorta take that as par for the course.. I am on THEIR property after all.

But if I'm sitting around working one day at my workshop and someone I have never heard of starts sending me promotional material via my key... lordy lordy we be havin' some fun tonight!

After all, my idea of 'playing with my friends' usually involves cannons, av magnets, exploding cows, and other such gadgetry -- does someone REALLY want me to take time out and think of something that *I* consider malicious?

Last fun I had like that was with 8 'security scripts' and a 16 x 16 parcel set to public land (Baron Pong anyone?)

Okay, so with the new tech you can just go to the site for the first time and say gimme gimme.



That's especially important with vehicles, I would imagine, since so many are copy/no transfer.



So you're saying that it would be just like my SLExchange account, but without the initial trip to the terminal and without having to trade money into a terminal? Do you mean that the object used to verify your account would also be used to add/withdraw money from said account?



Okay, so people are willing to run to a SLExchange terminal because they know the name, but the new guy would have trouble inspiring that initial trip.

Doesn't seem so bad to me at this point. If people spam, they'll get neg rated, shut down and possibly banned.

Gotta be fair, though... it doesn't seem like SL is big enough to warrant that level of attention yet, but I can see how someone could keep coming back through the use of alts and throw-away credit cards. All things considered, though... other people have honest concerns, but I personally have no problem with being on this sort of list.

Thanks for the details, Cris!


Gydeon.

God forbid we could find ONE environment where the threat of spam and invasive privateering are declined, and where people simply minded their own business and did not hoover up anything they can and use it against the wishes of the people who actually embody the info.

God forbid there would be a barrier to "impulse buying". You all must play along and be good little consumers, easily manipulated due to simply being exhausted from fighting this sort of thing everywhere you go.

The info is owned by LL. Created by me. It is mine to use, exclusively, nobody else may have a character named the same as mine, or with the same key. I pay for the use of that unique information. I do NOT pay to have that info taken out of the SL community and onto the public internet by anybody, LL or not, that wishes to do so. LL never gave me any reason whatsoever to believe that this is possible.

SL is not a public venue. There is no such thing as "public" information within it. It is a private venue for paying customers. What you think I should think is irrelevant. I pay for the info, it is unique to me, people that do not work for LL should not be able to do as they wish with something I PAY FOR.

How many more lists like this will crop up? How many more times will I have to opt out? This is just the beginning. As spammers find the holes, it will get worse. It is a sign of the decline of SL into just another online service that you can get spammed on.

If people didn't think they would benefit from doing this, they wouldn't do it. And of course, it doesn't benefit the people that it's forced on at all, other than giving you another way to spend money.

LL should openly state in their EULA that any and all information associated with a character that can be obtained in world is freely available to be published by anybody in any way, and that they can not be held responsible for the use of that info or any contact you may receive from it. They should warn people to be extremely careful when revealing any RL data in the 1st life profile, the forums, or any other place or venue associated with SL, because LL permits people to compile and publish that info anywhere, anytime, for any reason. Hell you can actually say, "MY SITE DECRYPTS SL SOFTWARE TO GET YOUR ACCOUNT NAME AND UNIQUE KEY", and LL won't do anything about it. Don't believe me? Visit bottomfeeder Ulrika's site.

How can a company permit this, and then say, "we are concerned with your security and privacy"? It's total bullshit. If it was true, you would not allow my in world info to be published externally. You'd ban people that do it, straight out, because SL is SL, and the real world is the real world, and there is a difference, and you respect that.

I still await LL's formal statement on allowing anybody in world to publish any info obtainable in game for any reason they see fit to do so. Since I have no reason at this point to believe LL is going to demonstrate any sensitivity at all to objections to this practice (they have not responded in any way to any of my letters), I am prepared to withdraw two paying accounts and release my 1/4 sim. Since I have a pay for life account, I will continue to have a presence in SL to object to this in any way I can, and to pursue the people that build these lists through their hosting services, on other forums, and any other legit means I can find. Sorry if that wasn't your plan when you got into the business of publishing my in world info in the RL world, but there you have it. I didn't cross that line, the people building these lists did. It may all be for nothing, but I believe it is the right thing to do. You have to draw the line somewhere, and since I invest directly in LL, this is where I make my stand. I will NOT give money to a company that is so irresponsible as to allow this, and I will absolutely continue to object to it any way I can.

The future of SL as a creative medium where you can escape from these concerns is looking pretty dim.

Let me just say how utterly amused I am to see the person who gave away all the Liaison's identities on a notecard so concerned about people spreading his publically available agent key.