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Name2Key Database

Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
05-10-2005 09:52
From: Newfie Pendragon

Personally, I am waiting for the Lindens to make a decision on this one. While dissemination of UUID information in-world is essential, uncontrolled public-to-the-world sites like this go far beyond the scope of how public these id's should be. Hopefully the Lindens will eventually make a decision to control where and how these UUID's can be used.

In the meantime Ulrika, take my ID off your list.


Your UUID is roughly about as private as your SL name.

Which is to say, not at all.
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
05-10-2005 10:01
From: Merwan Marker
I noticed that a few days ago also Beau.
I also asked to be removed, but in fainess to Ulrika, I may have asked in the wrong area of her web page.
Ulrika, please post instructions here how to message you to be removed from your list.
The instructions are on the web page. In short, I request that you IM me in world with the phrase "opt out" (or something similar). I'll miss things in the forum but IMs go to my email. I believe I got all the folks in this thread who asked to opt out.

I'm beginning to realize that the opt-out list is just as import as the name-key database. Imagine a server that had no name-key pairs but instead just served out various privacy settings for SL players. There could even be a privacy dial which varies between "Ulrika - what me worry?" to "Tcoz - baah it's getting through tinfoil hat". :D

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
05-10-2005 10:05
Ulrika, you can use my key, but I want it at the top of the list in a bold font! :D
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."

~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media



"That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."

~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
Newfie Pendragon
Crusty and proud of it
Join date: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,025
05-10-2005 10:17
From: Aliasi Stonebender
Your UUID is roughly about as private as your SL name.

Which is to say, not at all.


Which it more accurately to say, not at all decided by myself. One's SL name and UUID are hosted, created, and controlled by LL, so it's up to LL to decide what the privacy level is. At the very least, the info is not 100% public, as it currently resides at least within a semi-sort-kinda-somewhat limited-access domain (the SL servers). The question that's still undecided is how 'public' LL considers to be acceptable.

In-world 'public' is fine by me. It'll be accessible to all SL members. Despite its ease in being able to join SL, it's a limited group that has restrictions on entry - and therefore restrictions on access to the information.

Web-site 'public' is not an acceptable option, in my opinion. It is visible to anyone on the internet, regardless of their relationship or affiliation to SL. There are no controls or LL-approved monitoring of this list, or the uses of it.


As stated before, I'll be waiting for the Lindens to decide how 'public' this information will be considered.


- Newfie
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
05-10-2005 10:43
Ulrika, I reciprocate your previous comment. You are an asshole.

The info belongs to LL. NOT YOU. And nobody has given you or anybody else the right to do this.

I remind all of you that using that list, I found a great many of all ya'lls RL info. It doesn't matter that I can do it another way. I used Ulrika's list to do it.

Maybe that gives you a glimpse into how bad this problem actually is.
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** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
05-10-2005 10:52
Ulrika, what do you see as the legitimate uses for this database?

I see you mention web-based commerce and the late starter being at a disadvantage... a disadvantage at what?

I just want to understand from the people that are supporting this, what are they going to use it for?

-Ghoti
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"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-10-2005 10:53
From: Aliasi Stonebender
Your UUID is roughly about as private as your SL name.

Which is to say, not at all.



From: Newfie Pendragon
Which it more accurately to say, not at all decided by myself. One's SL name and UUID are hosted, created, and controlled by LL, so it's up to LL to decide what the privacy level is. <snip>

In-world 'public' is fine by me. It'll be accessible to all SL members. Despite its ease in being able to join SL, it's a limited group that has restrictions on entry - and therefore restrictions on access to the information.

Web-site 'public' is not an acceptable option, in my opinion. It is visible to anyone on the internet, regardless



That would seem be a slippery slope to me Newfie.

If UUID = SL Name
and SL Name = UUID
and UUID is deemed = allowable only through a member logging into the SL world or SL forums

then it would stand to follow that

SL Name is deemed = allowable only through a member logging into the SL world or SL forums.

That means bye-bye to all SL Names and pictures on the Main SL website, on Hamlet's Blogs, on all fan-sites, etc. :(

Something to think about I guess.
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*hugs everyone*
Newfie Pendragon
Crusty and proud of it
Join date: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,025
05-10-2005 11:08
From: Pendari Lorentz
That means bye-bye to all SL Names and pictures on the Main SL website, on Hamlet's Blogs, on all fan-sites, etc. :(

Something to think about I guess.



Not quite. The Main SL website and Hamlet's Blogs are all owned and controlled by LL, so it's their perogative as to how they use it - it's their property. As for fansites, etc...I really think the Lindens need to make a statement as to what they consider an acceptable use of their information on third-party sites. That's a large source of the problem right now, is that LL has not stated what LL-generated information is public versus in-world-public vs private. A lot of in-world information isn't that sensitive to the question, but UUID's are particularly dependent on the answer to the question.


- Newfie
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-10-2005 11:46
From: Newfie Pendragon
Not quite. The Main SL website and Hamlet's Blogs are all owned and controlled by LL, so it's their perogative as to how they use it - it's their property. As for fansites, etc...I really think the Lindens need to make a statement as to what they consider an acceptable use of their information on third-party sites. That's a large source of the problem right now, is that LL has not stated what LL-generated information is public versus in-world-public vs private.


Valid point! And probably worthy of its own thread all together... :)

From: someone
A lot of in-world information isn't that sensitive to the question, but UUID's are particularly dependent on the answer to the question.


It is true that a lot of in-world information isn't that sensitive to this question. But for the sake of argument on this particular information; I still feel that since UUIDs are just the number form of an Avatar's name, then the two types of names would have to be treated the same no matter what the ruling. Otherwise it would not make sense.

Basically, copying a list of every avatar's name listed on the forum directory, and posting them on a third-party site, would yeild some of the same "worry" that some seem to have about the list of UUIDs. The fact that the name could be tied to the SL world. Disallowing the use of SL avatar names on third-party sites would basically destroy many of the fansites out there. Not to mention it would become time consuming to enforse.

Ban the use of UUIDs being able to be used on third-party sites, and you ban the ability for SL players to purchase gifts for others using some of the shopping sites that are well established or are yet to come. I suppose it could be argued that this feature is not critical to a shopping site's existance, but it is certainly a feature that many use and enjoy. And not personally being a scriptor, I could not even begin to imagine what other *good* creative ideas it could stop.. some before they even start!

I guess the main thing I personally am trying to consider in all of this, is the fact that in trying to keep the few "bad people" from having "easier" (as anyone could already get it) access to certain information, we are going to hurt a lot of good that could come to the SL world because it is "easier" to obtain. That is my stance thus far, but I've of course been known to change my mind. :)
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*hugs everyone*
Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
05-10-2005 12:39
Then maybe fan sites need to be revisited.

Maybe all this SL-specific (and it is SL specific) info shouldn't be getting published willy nilly all over the internet unless the users specifically state that it may be done so.

Which one sounds more decent.

"May I publish your info? I'd appreciate it and you may benefit. But I will not do so at all, ever, if you say no".

Or...

"I am going to publish this info. Whether or not you like it, regardless of your wishes. If you don't like it, visit my site and opt out, which will actually not remove you, just mask a portion of your info."

There seems to be a great many people that favor the latter. And I just don't get it.
_____________________
** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-10-2005 12:40
Forget it Tcoz.

Your opinion is clearly in the minority, so you should obviously just shut the hell up.

That seems to be the philosophy around here.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
05-10-2005 12:41
EDIT if you were being sarcastic I apologize. But you know how much this angers me, and it is not wise to throw sarcasm at somebody in such a state.
_____________________
** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-10-2005 12:44
Heh heh.. sorry, I should have illuminated that I was being sarcastic.

Clearly, if you had bothered reading many of my posts, you would have recalled that I agree with many of your opinions on the subject.

But, alas, silly me for actually expecting people to read these posts..
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-10-2005 12:47
But tell me .. how does it feel to be isolated?

How does it feel to have an opinion (which is right, in so so many ways) but yet because the majority opinion has gotten it into their heads that they're right they all treat you so poorly and spend no time considering that maybe you might be right?

I didn't find it particularly suprising that you jumped on my so viciously - I'm sure you feel isolated and alone, backed up into a corner so much that you only have one option - to come out kicking and biting.

I hope you don't unedit your post. I think it is an excellent example of what happens when individuals are treated with dis-respect simply because they do not share an opinion that the majority holds.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-10-2005 12:50
Tcoz, I'd like to back you up in many ways.

You've come up with a lot of very good points and I think people need to understand them and if they don't have anything to contribute of *value* to this conversation, then *they* should STFU.

But, that's not what you're going to get around here. People are going to see an opportunity to pounce on you, insult you, and bait you because you feel very sincerely about this issue and because they have the safety of being in the popular opinion.

Which, is a complete logical fallacy. Just because some majority happens to think something, does not mean it is necessarily right.

And besides, this issue has all sorts of grey issues. There are compromises and balances that can be found. But they only way it's going to be found is if people stop isolating one another and avoid these fucking lynch mobs which are really really getting on my nerves.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
05-10-2005 12:52
I'm not isolated. The world as a whole rejects scumbag practices such as Ulrika's list building. Laws are gradually curtailing it, people are starting to go to jail for it. What they should do is throw them in a pit with starving dogs, but I'll settle for seeing them banned and fined.

And like you say, they feel the safety of numbers, and the safety of their anonymity. Which is being compromised by all these lists. Allowing this info to profilerate in this fashion is making it very easy to find people. I've tried just a few dozen searches and have hit the jackpot a number of times, as could anybody that has nothing to do with SL at all.

All they need is a compiled list of names and keys. I'm sorry if people can't imagine how that could easily be abused and why it should be forbidden without the consent of each user on it.

For some reason, just a number of people in SL support this. Maybe they don't get mail from anybody else and look forward to reading spam, I don't know. But I'm not one of them.
_____________________
** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
05-10-2005 12:55
From: Tcoz Bach
Blaze, I invite you to contact me in RL. And we'll see if you're so willing to show your fucking ass. Big talk on the forums, but you are a fucking coward.

Go fuck yourself. And yes, I'll say it to your face in RL.
Apologise to Blaze - he was making a point - sarcastically - in your favor.
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Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-10-2005 12:55
From: blaze Spinnaker
How does it feel to have an opinion (which is right, in so so many ways) but yet because the majority opinion has gotten it into their heads that they're right they all treat you so poorly and spend no time considering that maybe you might be right?


I hope that you are not including my posts on this topic in this generalization, Blaze. My true intention was to come across with my opinions, some food for thought, and an agreement that parts of this issue may in fact be worth an entire thread to themselves.

Just because a person may disagree with someone, it does not always mean they think less of the person or the issue. Or that they do not actually read and listen to what the other person is saying. And I personally value others opinions, even those that don't agree with me. I think any issue that seriously upsets someone is worth looking into. I don't agree that the person should always get the outcome they *want*, but we all can speak our peace (to a degree of course) at least on these forums. :)

I may not agree with Tcoz's approach to this topic. I may not even agree with him on his opinions, but I do hope I did not come across as condecending. I tend to only get mean when someone is mean to me first. :p
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*hugs everyone*
Willow Zander
Having Blahgasms
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 9,935
05-10-2005 12:57
That offensive post has changed so many times in the last 10 mins... its confusing me :(
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*I'm not ready for the world outside...I keep pretending, but I just can't hide...*




<3 Giddeon's <3
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
05-10-2005 13:02
Pendari, I'd never include you. :) You are always a sincere and deeply respected voice in these forums.

Sometimes though, I know what Torley and you and others are trying to do around here, and it doesn't hurt, but I generally prefer Ulrika's approach. Polite (well, usually, needs to work on that) but with ideas which are always deeply controversial as well.

I enjoy that. It makes me feel like we're all challenging one another. I'd like to see this place as a wild think tank where none of us are afraid of looking truth straight in the eye.

Unfortunately, it's usually not. Saying something which you think is true but invalidates expressed beliefs by others will just get you shot down by a set of verbal missiles.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper "Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds :

"User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
05-10-2005 13:20
From: Ghoti Nyak
Ulrika, what do you see as the legitimate uses for this database?

I see you mention web-based commerce and the late starter being at a disadvantage... a disadvantage at what?
The keys allow scripted objects to send players money or objects in second life. For instance, I have a vendor in our city that sells goods created by more than one artisan. After collecting a fee from the customer, the vendor uses two or more agent keys to send each artisan their share of the money automatically. The agent keys are also used by SL web retailers. When a player purchases an item on a web page, the server communicates to an object in SL which sends the player their purchased item. In short, an agent key is a critical component that is required to automate the transfer of objects and money (and theoretically spam).

So, someone wishing to create an SL web-based retail store, must collect agent keys in advance to do business. Most of them do this by sending out a terminal or wallet by hand, which then collects agent keys and accepts payments.

In my case, I created an "Agent Key Reporter", which I required artisans to touch, which sent a key-name pair to my server. I then maintained a text file with oodles of key-name pairs in it and had to look up keys by hand when coding my vendors. Having an llName2Key function would have saved me hours.


The disadvantage to start-up web-based retailers is the time it takes to compile the list of keys and the small number of customers that they are initially able to serve. I believe that businesses should compete based on their features, rather than their access to these keys. This is an infrastructure that should be open and shared -- exactly like a phone book or more accurately an "/etc/hosts" file.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
05-10-2005 13:31
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
So, someone wishing to create an SL web-based retail store, must collect agent keys in advance to do business. Most of them do this by sending out a terminal or wallet by hand, which then collects agent keys and accepts payments.


Precisely. An opt in system they had a choice over whether to sign up for an account with or not. And provided their key as part of that process
Pendari Lorentz
Senior Member
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,372
05-10-2005 13:43
From: Kris Ritter
Precisely. An opt in system they had a choice over whether to sign up for an account with or not. And provided their key as part of that process


Ok. Yes, this (and I know others have mentioned it), is a valid point. Kris you put it in a very clear way for me, thank you!. I maintain a corporate website (and others in the past) and I have always made my "would you like updates notices" something that people must actually sign up for FIRST. Never would I auto include anyone. It is sort of the "law of the ways of the net" these days, and seriously does help reduce spam, and it goes a long way in helping customers trust your business. Those of us who have other ways of protecting ourselves, or are more tech savvy in *that* way, do sometimes forget what it is like for "new ones".

Ulrika.. Is there a way to collect this list and publish it in world only? At least until the "worry" of "outside SL" harm could be put to rest? And after what you have already, do a few events to get people to sign up for it? We could do events that explain the benefits and such of the list. Always leave the ability to join open on the website, but perhaps only with a person's own key?

I dunno. It seems to be the best of both worlds to me. You still have a great database to build, but you ease a lot of people's fears..

Some thoughts I guess..
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*hugs everyone*
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
05-10-2005 13:49
From: Kris Ritter
Precisely. An opt in system they had a choice over whether to sign up for an account with or not. And provided their key as part of that process
So you're saying that you collected your 40,000 keys through an opt in system that required you to notify every single person that you were collecting and storing their agent key?

Assuming you worked eight hour days contacting and receiving replies from every person in your list, it would have taken you one year and two months of nonstop work to build your database.

Is your goal to return this list to the black market where keys are collected and traded covertly? What advantage do secret collection and sharing provide over an open list with an opt-out feature?

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
Posts: 6,734
05-10-2005 13:54
You're going to refight the same argument Jsecure met with. While personally I have no qualms with this, I do feel it should be opt in versus opt out. I despise tele-marketers on the same vein and have signed up on all of the do not call lists.
_____________________
YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net '

From: Khamon Fate
Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible.

Bikers have more fun than people !
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