Copyright - Omg How Dare You!!!!

Its even more pathetic, that people have to use this, to start more drama. Shall I list all that you and your "family" have done Boliver? Shall I start naming names of all that your little "mafia" hurt? No, I could, but I won't, because I'm better than that. If you have an issue with any of us, why not be an adult and tell us, instead of jumping on a bandwagon. And Boliver, you've never done anything good enough to be ripped off, so don't talk about things that don't exist.

If you stream music into your club, you are liable for ASCAP fees regardless of whether you are using an established radio station and regardless of the fees that station pays. If you have a live musician, and that person plays a song recorded at any time in any version by an ASCAP artist, you are liable for the ASCAP fees.

An ASCAP lawyer would have a field day in SL.

You may be right. I was just wondering though: Since their data never touches anything I own at all (stream directly from the radio station to the client), am I still liable?

One possible analogy is if I posted a notice in my club that said: "Please tune your headphones to 104.3." Do I owe money to the artists that are being played on 104.3? I am not personally reproducing or presenting their work in any way: I am only providing a pointer to a source that might contain their work.

The major flaw with this argument is that in SL club owners derive a benefit from having the audio stream tied to location. Is a "location-specific link" sufficient to qualify as "music into my club?" Anyway.

I'm disgusted at the attitude of the second club owners. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I visited the clubs in question. Nobody can know what goes on in the hearts of people as they do their work, but it's impossible not to infer an intent to copy Schmooze.

So can the second club's owners really not expect Tya to be angry? What kind of fool steals and expects their mark to come 'talk it over'? What would be the end result of this negotiation? Only stealing parts? This is a lot of posturing by what appear to be somewhat classless people.

It takes just a bit more time to build something on your own model rather than blatantly take a bite out of someone else's work. Look at the trouble you've caused--you, not Tya. Her reaction is completely expectable. Your first action is the proximal cause of all this, and to deny you knew you were doing something wrong to wave some pretty obvious dishonesty in public. How embarrassing.

eh neither of us are lawyers so I can't answer your questions. But ASCAP is the organization that went after the Girl Scouts for singing Happy Birthday (and other campfire songs but Happy Birthday was mentioned specifically in the suit). According to their argument, it was recorded by ASCAP recording artists and the GS needed to pay a license to use it.

Now, knowing that, do you really think they wouldn't have all kinds of fun in SL? And regardless of whether or not you were breaking a law, do you have the time and money to fight their cadre of lawyers? ASCAP has never lost a lawsuit. Never.

This is why I caution folks to be careful. This is shaky ground we are walking on. I know just enough about copyright law and DCMA and ASCAP to walk around SL and notice violations just about everywhere. And I really don't know all that much. Think of what could happen if our petty little squabbles actually attracted someone who does know all that much.

It sucks a lot that someone stole Tya's build and didn't give her credit. But Tya's business isn't being hurt by this. Tya didn't loose any money over this. Her reputation is not damaged by this (well it might be after this thread but that's a different story). I don't think she ought to file a DCMA violation -- I don't think ANYONE should file a DCMA violation ever - even if they are actually damaged. DCMA is a bad bad thing and it wasn't written to protect people like you and me.

I think we all should just chill out and recognize that sometimes less ethical people will do stuff like this and there is not much anyone can do about it. We sit on shaky ground in SL and the more noise about crap like this the more likely we are to wake up a sleeping giant who owns the real life license which we use freely in world.

It shows all the class of a guttersnipe.

In which case dragging it out into the public eye on the forums is the best thing that can be done. Shame, if not effective, is at least fun.

I agree...

First, let me just say, in the spirit of the recent Easter holiday… Let those among you who have no software on your PC to “rip” copyrighted music from CD’s cast the first stone. Let me also say that, if you are going to be so bold as to try to quote copyright law, please go that one extra little step and spell copyright correctly. Even though the laws apply to things typically written, it’s not a copywrite, it’s a copyright - the right to copy or not to copy that that is written.

Okay now that I’ve gotten that off my chest I’d like to pose a question. Was there any loss of income incurred by this act of plagiarism? Has anyone been financially burdened by the presence of this second “copy” of, what some have called a black and pink virtual box in our cherished little community known as SL? Looking at this as objectively as I possibly can, I would have to say the answer to both of these questions is a resounding NO!

By the same token, the fact that this particular thread has spread like wildfire through the annals of cyberspace proves something - SL’ers are passionate! Without passion what kind of world would this be, be it virtual or otherwise? If we have no passion in our lives we merely exist. Acclaimed songwriter Jenny Yates penned these words… “Life is not tried if it’s merely survived.” So, for all of you who are engaged enough in this life and in this virtual community to raise your voice, I salute you.

Being cognizant, however, of the fact that this thread has the potential for going on and on in ad nauseum, I see a definite need of finding a way to put this matter to bed once and for all.

Since there are now two clubs that, arguably, are very similar, it’s likely that once the novelty and drama of this matter wanes, neither club will experience a significant level of patronage. One might argue that this loss of compensation for high traffic volume is reason enough to prosecute those involved in this purported “crime” but keep in mind that this financial perk we’ve all enjoyed will soon be coming to an end.

So, in an effort to circumvent this problem that both club owners are destined to experience, perhaps both structures should, as extreme as it may sound, be leveled making room for a “Build Off” to take place. Let’s pit club owner against club owner, in strictly a competitive light, to see who can design and build “the better mousetrap,” possibly even going so far as to assemble an impartial panel of judges to award the grand prize. Maybe the contestants could even “play for pinks” as they say… forfeiting the deed to their property should they not immerge victorious.

Since idea theft is a problem within the realm of SL - a problem that has no short-term real or virtual legal solution - perhaps we can treat future cases in a similar manner. Rather than running around yelling, “Fowl!” why not simply say, “Thank you for the compliment of trying to mimic my work, however sub-standard your attempt may be. Now I shall move on and build something even bigger and better and, perhaps, even more difficult to reproduce.” In the long run I think we will grow as builders and SL becomes all the more beautiful and prosperous as a result.

Respectfully,
Bartiloux Desmoulins

The music you currently hear in Tya's entire sim of Pixel Dreams is provided by XTSL Radio of which I am the owner and principal operator and we most assuredly DO pay proper broadcast royalties to ASCAP, BMI, SESAC and SoundExchange. We are one of the few Second Life radio stations who do so.

If you are interested in paying royalties for your internet stream broadcast might I recommend the services of LoudCity? They help small internet broadcasters do it right and legal.

Tralos Westerburg
XTSL Radio - Radio to the XTreme

I think many of you are missing the point of why i am angry.

1. They lied
2. I put my heart and soul into every build I do. And for someone to come along and BS everyone and deny it. How would u all feel. Spending 200 a month for a sim, pushing away personal time with your friends in game. )glad my friends understand my creative drive) to create and build to hearts desire. To see in your mind what you want and to be able to put it into 3d. That for me is pleasure. Not dwell popularity blah blah. I build due to a creative need that I have that I dont get in my RL work. SL is my outlet. I challenge anyone to put yourself in my shoes. How would you feel? Slapped? Of course you would.
3. As for the textures. 1/2 I have paid for and 1/2 I have created my self.
4. Yes there are about 100 clubs around the world called Schmooze.. lmao so what. I like the name and always have, there is no harm or copyright. My logo is my own design.
5.As for me posting my rl, to get sympathy, NOT. I dont need yours or anyone else sympathy.
6. If you wanted a club, you could have sent me an offline email asking me to help build you one. I would done if for free. I dont charge for builds. From a whole sim that took 4 months to a house. Ask anyone who knows me. I enjoy it. I enjoy creating an atmosphere, that people can be comfortable in.
7. You have no morals or values. You dont know what time and effort it takes to build. No crap builds but quality. Yes i am saying i do quality builds.
8. You have spit on everyone developer in this game. Bravo.

Oh i have more but i need to get back to work

~Tya

First off I would like to say *OWNED* in response to the owner of the radio station posting on the forums. To those of you using the "illegal" streaming as your reason to justify this copy then HA!

As for brining in real world *gasp* companies into SL... did no one hear that Matel was suing the Barbie Club?

As for the scum responsible for copying Tya's club (its not hard to pic out who they are from this thread) I say SHAME ON YOU! I have banned all of you from my land since I do not wish to have any of my builds copied and I suggest any other land/sim owners DO THE SAME.

Cheers,

Kirk

I have to say that I relish every second of smug forum types getting it shoved in their face when they:

(1) make horsesh*t assumptions (paraphrased: 'you're probably ripping MP3s and stealing your textures'/'clean your own house')

and

(2) make arguments that are blatantly dumb and overly broaden the situation (both clubs are 'shit'/neither build will get traffic/copy'write' protection isn't guaranteed)--seriously, is it that hard to stay on topic?

The particulars are all. And the particulars of this situation are clear as day. If anyone deserves a forum rant, considering the numbingly inane tripe that gets posted daily on the forums and wastes everyone's time to root through, Tya has that right.

Really? Where did you hear about this?

But it doesn't matter if you pay them. It matters is if Tya or Linden Labs pays them. ASCAP fees are applicable if, for instance, you own a bookstore and play a radio station in your store. The fees must be paid regardless of whether or not the radio station pays them.

I have to wade in here,

That statement is not entirely true,

If you see a billboard that tells you to tune into a radio station and you do so in your car, you do not have to pay fees, as they are paid by the station.

Since the way that SL streams audio is directly to the client, and if the stream provider is paying the fees then all is good as each person is simply an end user much as a person listening in their car is.

All the media stream for land is doing is pointing your client in the right direction to get to the station.


Just my .02 on the stream issue, but this whole thing is silly, I would be just as mad if someone copied my builds, but as I see it , would just make me want to build better.

The statement is entirely true. I never said or implied that the individual user has to pay ASCAP fees. I said (or implied) that the business owner has to pay the fee. In this case, the business owner would be Tya or Linden Labs.

ASCAP uses as its basis for fees whether or not you are using the music to attract people (whether they be dancers, shoppers, or girl scouts). In the case of the Girl Scouts, GSA was not using the song Happy Birthday to promote their business. However ASCAP sued (and won) because they successfully argued that the ability to sing an ASCAP licensed song on the group level enabled the GSA to attract more people to their club.

In the case of, say, a used bookstore or coffeeshop that plays the radio, the fact that the radio station pays ASCAP fees does not matter. The radio station pays fees because playing the music attracts listeners to its business. But playing the radio attracts (arguably) shoppers to the bookstore or coffeeshop and therefore the shop is also liable for ASCAP fees.

But hey don't believe me. Go look it up. There's tons of information on ASCAP on the net. Its one of the world's greatest scams.

I understand where you're coming from here, but to my knowledge whether a person is listening to my station using Windows Media Player, Winamp, or Second Life as their client they are all equal in the eyes of the royalty collecting entities. In other words, SL is just another streaming audio client -- it's not located in a "store" its located on the internet and the listeners choice of streaming media software is irrelevant.

This is not to say that ASCAP et. al. will not someday claim that virtual stores, neighborhoods and clubs in SL should be policed and regulatated in the same way as tangible real life establishments, but for now I think you're reaching on this point just a bit. Not to mention that streaming audio and the associated royalty payment requirements have absolutely nothing to do with scumbags duplicating the builds of others in SL. It's a strawman argument designed to draw attention from the real issue.

Tralos Westerburg
XTSL Radio

Humm, not going to wade too deeply into this, even though I managed to read it all without my brain exploding.

As a builder I have to face the fact people will copy products and ideas without proper acknowledgement. I have seen people copy prefab homes of mine using my land as build space and eating my prim limit in the process. These people in my opinion are not of the most caring nature, but I don't feel they deserve the publicity that comes from drama threads in the forums. They just aren't worth my time, money, or thoughts. Period.

As for the two clubs discussed in this thread they ARE different enough a copyright complaint would be dismissed. The original is a better build in quality then the said "rip off" in my opinion. But the ultimate decision comes down to the customer, which is why people do public builds to begin with. (Happy customers = more money and more fun, right?) In that case, the club with the best atmosphere, music, and staff will win, correct? (As traffic/dwell payments are no-more.)

Now, ya'll play nice now. And keep this crap out of the forums.

- Sam
*rolls eyes*

The SecondLife client is just like any other client used to listen to a streamed station. The data never touches any server connected to Linden Labs. It goes directly from the radio station paying, or not paying, ASCAP fees to the person listening to it.

You are providing nothing more than a link to the server and as such there would be no additional ASCAP fee.

Tya,

You make wonderful content for SL. You have amazing talent from your models, to your texturing to all the wonderful details you put into your build. I am sorry this has happened to you and I can only imagine how it must feel and to top it off I know you are personally going through big changes in your real life. It's just unfortunate timing they are happening at the same time.

Your creations always make me smile and go wow.

Keep your chin up.

What this other person did was wrong, anything said to the contrary is just noise.

Man, I'm glad someone brought this up. It just took seven thousands posts to get to it.

ASCAP/BMI are songwriter royalty agencies; performance and mechanical rights are handled by RIAA, unless, repeat *unless* you have permission from the copyright holder in certain cases. There are also Publishing Rights, but that is another beast entirely.

Don't have much to say on the issue as I'm a fan of both Elpha and Tya and their respective sims. It's ackward, and well, both parties have some pros and cons going for them.

ER/Spin

well we are afilliated and have permission from the owners of club977.com
my land and club and events are based around the biggest radio station in the world, after negotiations with the owners, (PROOF LIES ON THE WEBSITE ITSELF I LINKS WITH A SLURL) BUT I DONT BLEAT ON OR GO AFTER CLUBS streaming the radio station. thats why i dont give a crap. and why i could back up a claim of using the copyrighted name and logo,s in sl. because i went out my way to email the owner and gain permission and even get a link slurl to sl from the site. these copyright crap would shut sl down in a day if they went after everyone infringing. down to clubs streaming pirate films, clothes, textures, dj,s streaming probable downloaded mp3,s land named after well known clubs, casinos. then you got exact builds from rl.. dublin amsterdam.. how far does this go.
do we wnt to open a big freakin can of worms cos it would kill sl. i have an avater which uses fmous cartoon charachters. as i already said.. would the star wars sim close.gor. other non sl based rpg. or games.. all we are doing is promoting the fact of blatant copyright infingment exists in an online simulator.
how far do we go to. because someone will always go that one step further.

I am a builder, not a politician. I come to the builder thread to read about builds, who needs help. who needs work done etc. I vote for this thread to move to somewhere other than here. I appeal to the moderator to move this.

All of you whining and complaining and instigating arguments aside from the poster's initial whining just shut up all of you. You sound like a bunch of old blue haired ladies gossiping and arguing at the hair salon. As for the initial poster, its obvious that she has no husband at home to whine and complain to anymore, so she's using other outlets. I'm sure she'll adjust as she gets used to her independance. For now just nod and say Uh huh and yea... and she'll be okay.