Copyright - Omg How Dare You!!!!

well, i have been to both clubs. and although looking simalar thats it. do you own a copyright on the name, or design. if not then tough luck.
personally i would get on with it.and stop wingeing, impersonation being the highest form of flattery. as numerous other other people said your name of your club and concept alrady exists. ITS A GAME!.get over it. ! my club is called CLUB977 the 80,s experience.
an official affiliation with the rl radio station. i am on the main web page in links and work there. does that mean no one can strea into sl from the stream. or host 80,s nights in an 80,s themed club. (because i had a rubix cube i was accused also of copying) its a load of crap.
if people love your club that much they will go and stay and support you. just a s clothes designers also. cheap copys are exactlty that... cheap copys. if i want a good avatar or clothes i goto the correct shops. and designers i like. not cheap photosourcing rip offs.

When someone rebuilds your club, then tell me how you are going to feel. Its not the texturs. its the same layout and design. its a slap in my face and they denied it.

I have a headache.. off to bed for me. thank you all for your support and ty to those who have flamed me in the process. i have tough skin and i dont back down to easily.

~tya

I have seen both the clubs. Tya's has obviously been around much longer and is creative content from her own mind; the other is without a doubt a copy from every aspect. This is not simply a club like any club with a bar, dj booth, and particles. This is Tya's creative voice. There does have to be a line drawn, i agree, between what is copying and what is just a normal club layout, clubs are clubs and do have some similar things, YET when someone outright copies everything from the layout and design of the DJ booth, bar, dance cages, VIP room and even the chairs and tables that is outright copying of someone’s own creative property. YES this should be protected! When someone puts this much time and effort into building their dream just to have someone copy it exactly and claim it is their's is wrong. If this is ignored then nothing we build that is special to us is safe. Please stand up for a better SL don’t let these builders copy and get away with it!

Oh boy that I am tempted to let my UBER IMMATURE SELF speak out in this thread right now...

Let's just say, I am (well kind of) glad to see I am *not alone now* to not like the owners of this spot in SL...

Since it's two completely different stories and that we aren't aloud to name names, I will try to shut up, but Tya, I don't know you but I am with you.

If anyone wants details I will GLAAAADLY give them in IMs.

Long story short:

Someone who dares to say "I pay 195$ a month for this sim, I don't need to be fair or nice to you" doesn't deserve all the respect she got, from my own friends even, so I am not surprised at all. When you are unfair and cold, you tend to screw a lot of people's lives, pixels or not.
I was hurt, deeply. Tya was hurt, deeply.
I can't wait for the day this person realizes that everyone around her (who are uber talented designers and cool people) are doing her MAJOR favor by remaining friends.
In fact, I wish I could make a list of how many of them actually are hypocrites and stay there because rent is free....

Oh my god anyways I am completely out of subject here but I just had to rant because I was shocked yet released to see those names vs. trouble.

Sorry Tya, I am with you.
Maybe it's because she doesn't like Canadians? LOL
Anyways, I am not usually a copyright freak but yeah, not too cool...
Good luck with all this!

It’s not just sad that Tya's lovely build has been outright copied, but it is how the builders/copiers have reacted. Instead of admitting they are wrong in copying the build, apologizing, and taking the build down, they keep acting like it was their original build and that it came from their own creative minds... Please people admit you are wrong, apologize publicly so we all can see it, and take down the build.

Do you think they would've copied your club if it was a sucky, ugly build?
Or does it mean you created such a good/nice setup that is worth copying?

But if they did't copy it 1:1, just 'about the same look with modifications', I'm not sure you can do much

I'm not even sure why you even posted this, unless it was to whine.
Posting this on the forums was not the best way to solve this.

Whatever, just my 2 cents

I have to point out, Elphaba's post didn't deny she copied it, and didn't claim it was her original idea. She says she built it-- well, copying a build would require one to build, so that isn't saying much. She says so many builds in SL look alike. I would have liked to see more pictures, of other clubs that look so similar, if this is the case.

Of course, I have no idea what's been said in-world. Just talking about the post. Which really sounds like she's avoiding the issue (admitting she copied the club, or not). And now she won't read this thread again.. heh. How convenient. No way to get a straight answer now.

I visited both clubs.. the supposed "fake" is tough to get into since everyone's been banned from it (I visited around 1:30am SL time). I certainly never IMed her, which she claims is the reason for the banning. I really think if she had problems with people in IMs, she should have just banned those people, but no, everyone is banned (terribly suspicious!). Anyhow, the similarities are undeniable.. I then spoke with a friend of Elphaba's too. The friend knows she used Tya's design. But like I said, Elphaba has not denied anything, so we can't say too much there.

Good luck protecting your design Tya.

Talking about it would have solved the problem. Instead Tya comes out cussing and making a long dramatic post on the forums. I was cussed at for trying to talk to Tya which eventually lead to his/her(she told me to suck her dick) man to step in and try to make me admit to coping the club. Now apparently they want drama instead of a resolution.

On to the conversation I was trying to hold with both of them. I was mearly explaining to them unless they wrote all the scripts and uploaded all the textures they can not copywrite the club. Not to mention they are named after a club who already has rights to the name.
Builders you can not ever copywrite an in game item unless the game company sets up a in-game copywrite system. The lindens own EVERY item in game so they would have to give you a share of the company just so you can copywrite anything. Which could lead to lawsuits if they need to ever close the game. You will also need a logo and a buisness name. It costs I belive anywhere between 200 - 2000 dollars depending on the situation. Yea goodluck with that kk??

We have a fun little Retro sim that many of us call home. We closed the SIM for the night to cut this drama. It was the adult thing to do until we decide what we are going to do.

Does the TOS not state that any content you create belongs to you and that you hold complete creative rights over? This would have to spread to objects as well as textures and scripts.
For instance, a 3D model does not suddenly lose any trademarked value because it is untextured, and a pencil sketch does not suddenly not belong to the artist because it is unpainted.

Using some personal creativity when creating a club would've been tons better don't you think? Copying a club is fine as long as the other person isn't able to converse properly when they find out? Isn't that a bit of twisted logic?

Your knowledge on copyright is also pretty poor so I'd advise against sharing it with others.

Dare I ask if either club pays proper royalties to ASCAP/BMI/etc. for the music they play in their clubs including submitting the complete time logged playlist and patron count that such agencies typically require for public performance of music under their licensing?

I would personally find it difficult to stand on a moral high ground about the "copyright infringement" of a club design while being cavalier about the music which is the primary draw for most clubs.

I know none of the players in this mini-drama nor have I seen the clubs in question. I have seen RL clubs that bear striking resemblances to each other, some to the degree that you'd be hard pressed to say whether you are inside A or B.

I dont know either party. I don't visit clubs in SL. I don't LIKE clubs in SL.

That said, I have to side with Tya - This is a deliberate copy. This is not a case of "all clubs look alike". Too many details match.

If imitation is the highest form of flattery, please dont flatter me.

Copying other people's thing is wrong. If you don't have the imagination or the talent to design your own club, then pay someone else to do it for you.

Hopefully as dwell dies the incentive for this sort of practice dies with it.

Sorry this happened Tya, I hope you get the pirate build taken down.
Cali

And your post is even more helpless.

Just MY 2 cents

Briana Dawson

Jeeze you are disgusting. We all know copyright infringement happens continuously in SL content from the real worl being brought into our SecondLife, but that does not mean we have to start ripping each other off.

Although I doubt a build can be copyrighted or anything officially done to this person it does not change what they are.

A piece of crap.

Briana Dawson

Yes, you have shown that you are within your legal rights to copy the club.

However, there is a whole other issue that seems to have gone over your head. It is called the moral issue. You have the ability to do it, you believe you have the right to do it. But *should* you do it?

If those are unfamiliar paths for your thoughts to follow, perhaps a period of reflection might be in order.

Y'know I'm real sorry Tya has been hurt. But, as has been pointed out, no one here is an angel. Tya took the name from a real-life club. What happens if one of them come to SL and says "hey you stole our name!" As was already pointed out, I doubt anyone is paying ASCAP/BMI fees for music. And your DJs... did they buy rights to all those MP3s they play or did they download them from somewhere (chances are they downloaded them). Did Tya create all her own textures? Or buy them from someone who did? Or are they things she found?

It seems like every time I turn around these days there's another designer screaming on the forums about how their original design was stolen. Many of these same folks are 'inspired' by something they saw in real life. Or inspired by something else they saw somewhere. There's a person in SL that sells uniform replicas from popular sci fi shows (star trek, babylon 5, farscape, etc). Where is the outrage!??! Much of the clothing you see is photosourced from real life designs. Where is the outrage?!!?

I think it would be one thing if this person had copied your design and was selling replicas. Or advertising their club to be "just like club Schmooze!" But they aren't doing that. They just built something similar and even if it was an exact replica, I fail to see how that affects Tya. Its a little smarmy that they don't even credit her, if indeed it is a rip off or they were inspired by her but other than that, I'm not seeing the cause for the drama.

You guys go throwing the DMCA around and every designer in SL is going to find him or herself in trouble. Should we now envision a day when ASCAP and BMI lawyers start stalking LL because we stream radio stations and music? Then LL will turn off streaming. What happens to your little club then? You hit this chick with the DMCA and the next thing you know, the owners of the REAL club schmooze will be in SecondLife giving Tya so much shit she won't know what hit her. We'll have clothing designers stalking our favorite stores, screaming bloody hell every time something created in world looks even remotely like something created out of world. A rather famous hair designer just announced her new photosourced textures. I sure hope she used her own hair for the source. Oh no? Expect trouble.

Really you all need to just chill before things get out of hand. These copyright laws are pretty strict and if you start opening up this can of worms, its going to get out of hand, and quickly at that. I suggest that if you do open this can of worms, you make sure your own house is in order before you go there. For Tya that would probably mean no more streaming radio, DJs that play only original, independent music from non-ASCAP artists (good luck on finding some), and a change of name -- at the very least.

Really folks -- think about how clean your own plate is before you go tossing words like DMCA and lawsuit around.

This is simply not true. Copyright is *automatic.* There are two kinds of copyrights: The automatic kind, and registered copyrights. The main difference between the two is the amount of monetary compensation you are allowed to seek in court.

It has in fact happened in RL that derivative works based on the "idea" of a copyrighted work have been found to be illegal. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_v._Koons

For the lazy, here is the key part of the opinion:
The Court found both "substantial similarity" and that there was access to the picture. The similarity was so close that the average lay person would recognize the copying. Thus the sculpture was found to infringe Rogers' copyright.

So let us consider the Schmooze case.
1) There is clearly substantial similarity between the builds.
2) There clearly was access to the original club.
Therefore, the copy-club is infringing, *even though* the club was re-built from scratch.

With regards to the claim that Tya should not use "Schmooze" as her name: A work can only be *copyrighted* if it represents a significant creative work. For this reason, copyright never protects a short word or phrase. For that purpose trademarks must be used. From wikipedia:
'The extent to which a trademark owner may prevent unauthorized use of trademarks which are the same as or similar to its trademark depends on various factors such as whether its trademark is registered, the similarity of the trademarks involved, the similarity of the products and/or services involved, and whether the owner’s trademark is well known.'
In this case the owner's trademark is not well known. It is probably a big debate whether or not the services provided are similar: Is a virtual club similar to a real club, in terms of what services it provides? I don't think that the answer here is so obvious to me, because I am not a lawyer.

As for paying royalties: I think we probably *should* be paying royalties. FWIW, I only use streams from established radio stations: Then the listener is listening to the radio station directly. The only thing I did was give them the (publicly available! Not subscriber-based) URL.

I checked both clubs (as someone who does not visit clubs usually I did not knew both).

From a Copyright point of view I have to say, that it would be very hard to bring this to court if it would happen in First Life (we don't have courts in SL, anyway). And if one would succeed with a court accepting the case, one would probably loose it.

While it is clear that the second club incorporates most of the basic ideas which give the first club its special feeling, there are lots of little (and some larger) variations which make sure that is is not an exact COPY in the execution of these ideas. The biggest difference is, that Tya's club is an excellent build, perfect in many details, while the other one is ... of a much more ordinary quality. A comparison certainly does flatter her abilities as a builder.

Copyright is a complicated (and often counter-intuitive) area of the law. It's nearly impossible to protect ideas, for example - which has its advantages, too.

What has happened here can better be judged from a moral point of view, not a legal one.

Now, thats an interesting attitude!

Like others have already said, unless they are selling copies trying to make money off the design, you don't have much of an argument past "it looks the same". As far as textures go, if you aquired them in SL, then you can't argue the use of those. I'm sure the patrons of your club won't leave b/c this one looks the same. They go there for the ppl, not b/c of how the prims are layed out.

So, we've established:
1) Polly's isn't selling copies of the build
2) Most textures aren't yours anyhow
3) You won't be losing business

...so, what's the problem again?

Vivianne Draper has found the nail and inflicted serious logic to it's head. I'm not looking forward to the day when some lawyer or agent of Viacom/Sony/Turner/whoever gets into SL and sees nothing but a gigantic, red bulls eye.

Bringing this whole debacle to the forums doesn't really help your cause Tya. In the future it would be wise to simply fill out a DMCA infringment report (no matter how futile) and get on with your life. Situation - Drama = Rationality.



quoted from the TOS...



I'd advise you (and anyone else who hasn't) to read section 6 in full.

Also, I couldn't help but note how many posts started with "I've known Tya since..." and then proceeded to be the ugliest posts of all.

First of all, adding your little r/l drama, to get more sympathy, is pathetic. What does you leaving your husband after 10 years, have to do with a cartoon club? Second, had you messaged any of us, and acted like a civil, normal adult, we would have gladly talked to you. Instead you acted like a snot nose, spoiled brat kid. I have many items of clothing, from many different designers, that look similar. Shall we start posts screaming OMG how dare you? Ok so, our club looks similar to yours....its a black box, the same thing all clubs are here. I suggest, since you wanted to make it public, that you try to find a r/l again, crying and stressing this much about a black box, in a virtual game, is a bit scary.

I have the unfortunate displeasure of knowing both Lola and Elphaba infact were Sl family once. I have to say they are two of the biggest nastiest rip off ready drama queens I have ever met. I know this will get both those idiots to flame me now but I can thelp but speak the truth they have hurt all around them on an ongoing basis and Tya I am as always with ya 100%