Gaming issue in SL- a solution?

For all of you who took the time to read and get abreast of the issues, I truly thank you for viewing and/or posting if you were able.

Many of you had valid points to contribute and I hope to see more discussion on the boards as SL's economic status becomes more clear.

I had hoped to hear from the fashion/design industry as to how feel the gaming ban has/had or will affect their individual businesses but I'm sure we will hear from them at some point.

We certainly need lots more people to get involved regardless of the stance they take, hopefully after reading up on the issues. The decisions that LL makes affect us all. So encourage more to educate themselves and speak out here. Only numbers will get LL's attention before it's too late.

I know there are many more out there who probably are interested in participating here, but are still picking up the pieces of their secondlives and trying to figure out what to do next, as we all are.

As always, the hope remains that LL will show some response to our concerns.

Actually, they DO get involved in such cases. I have SEEN them get involved in such cases. Again, do your own research, or choose to be ignorant but please stop intentionally giving people misinformation. And the very fact that you said you don't want casinos here in SL means you ARE anti-casino.

Given the state of the grid since the announcement I can't see how it would be possible for any shop-owner to have any idea what impact gaming has had on sales. Conjecture maybe but not true knowledge. I feel the same way about the economic reports that have been posted on various links to supposedly show the gaming bans impact on SL. To me, any reports over the past 5 days are of no value whatsoever other than to show SL's instability and the impact that has had on the economy.

All in all, though, an interesting thread.

When did I say I didn't want casinos in SL? Also please post examples of LL getting involved in a casino not paying off.

What do you mean that I am intentionally giving misinformation? Your ignorance is astounding. LL does not get involved in disputes of the sort you describe. At best, you could use the account summary to show that you paid a machine etc., but there is no way to prove that you won anything. use common sense.

http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/06/16000_jackpot_t.html

Check this link please.

By the way, the "winner" was a freind of mine.

Actually, I played in a casino not long after I joined SecondLife and hit 7 7 7 on a slot machine and it did not pay me anything. I took a screencap of it occuring and marked down the time and date, I then sent a notecard to the owner of the casino and I NEVER heard a thing from them nor received one L$ for it. It was a long time ago though so I doubt I still have those screencaps and I don't remember the place.

I understood that I took that risk onto myself when I played, I accepted my losses and simply decided to not play there again.

So even with that PERSONALLY happening to me, I *STILL* do not wish for the gaming/gambling industry to be closed the way that it has been. I guess that's just the kind of person I am, heh.

Personally I believe that bad industry or business takes care of itself in the long run and things should not be ENFORCED upon everyone else. If someone rips another off, then word will get around and that business will suffer in customer loyalty, etc.

A little twist of a popular saying I decided to use..

Rip me off once -- Shame on you.
Rip me off twice -- Shame on me.

It is not an US againt THEM situation. We are all in this together. This thread is about determining the impact on the SL virtual economy. Not the merits or demerits of having casinos or brothels or scriptors in SL.

The common interest here is in suporting LL to continue to provide the SL service. NOT to argue the morality of gambling, or veracity of information.

Just like Gisela said, cite your sources, and tlets get on with having a meaningful discussion about this that will benefit both LL and SL, and the thousands of users that enjoy the advantages of having a "Second Life".

*laughs* My god, some people on these forums are among the most deluded I've ever known, and that's saying something, lemme tell ya.

And yes, LL will give up the control of buying and selling of L$ and the money they make on this process so that you can continue to run casinos where you take advantage of people who are bad at math. *chuckles*

Good grief, folks. They banned gambling. Who can be suprised at this? Is it legal for you to put a slot machine in your drive way and make money off it? Not bloody likely. So why do you think you've got a "right" to do so from your computer desk?

I am sad that you made the choice to be so then. Maybe you will choose to not be so gullible.
Or if you think an Abuse Report report will fix it, once you (or the owner of the machine) have scammed so many people, maybe you want people to be ignorant?

How many scammers have come back as a new avie, only to do it again? Maybe you are one of them? Heaven forbid, LL actually stops you for good, huh?

Hey I had machines, and I know what it takes. I stopped having them because of the regulation issues.

You may do it because you are a responsible operator, Bravo. Some don't. In RL a casino does beacuse they HAVE to by law. The few times I visited a SL Casino, my first thought was "How do I know these games are on the level?" I don't. That plus the fact I found SL gambling to be extremely boring, made me not return to one.

I'm ambivalent as to whether gambling exists or not in SL, but I generally feel people should do as the wish for the most part, so I couls even say I'm sympathetic to your cause. That being said, calling People "Ignorant" in every post you make will not help you further that cause. You simply portray yourself as "Arrogant"

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/06/16000_jackpot_t.html

Source cited once again.

Your turn.

If your intent is not to insult, then simply don't do it. You get no respect from me when you do, and only for that reason. You'll note that I did accede to your salient points.

And my post stated or implied absolutely no disrespect to those who approve of the OP's suggestion -- in fact, read what I said rather than what you assume I must mean, because I did say that this is a valid suggestion worthy of consideration.

Finally, you're an idiot to assume I'm against gambling in SL, or even totally opposed to the OP's suggestion. I raised some concerns, many of which were intelligently responded to you by you and others.

Please just stuff the ad hominem attacks and pretend you're interested in discussing this subject like a rational person. If I get more abuse from you I'll just mute your posts, which means I'll miss your valid points and that will be too bad for us both.

Its not a matter of being surprised Nack. Its a matter of fairness. For instance it is illegal for me to sell a vibrator in the state of Texas (yes, that is really true)

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.009.00.000043.00.htm

§ 43.23. OBSCENITY. (a) A person commits an offense if,
knowing its content and character, he wholesale promotes or
possesses with intent to wholesale promote any obscene material or
obscene device.

(f) A person who possesses six or more obscene devices or
identical or similar obscene articles is presumed to possess them
with intent to promote the same.

ok.. so if you don't read the link,, take my word for it, I cannot promote or sell an 'obscene' device in the state of Texas.

I also am breaking the law if I were to strap a gun to my thigh in plain view and go walking around in public.

However both of these activities are perfectly acceptable in SL. Even in LL's TOS they say very clearly that some of the things that can be done in SL are illegal in RL. And it is the users responsibility to comply with state and federal laws.

All I am saying is that even though I do not believe gaming in SL is illegal, to take the Lindex out of the equation, and let people do what they want to do. No one is saying that you have to gamble in SL, and gambling most certainly isn't for everyone by any stretch of the imagination. Most reasonable people know and understand that that gambling is entertainment. An activity that you pay somone to engage in. Its that simple.

And if you think LL really makes a boatload of money off of the Lindex, at .30 cents per sale, and 3.5% per purchase, I would say that you are just simply mistaken.

I'm not flaming you, nor am I crying sour grapes. I love SL. It has been a great tool for me, and I don't want to see it destroyed, and unfairly managed.

How much revenue will your suggestion cause Linden Labs to lose?

Revenue lost in the name of allowing people to gamble, nothing more, nothing less, correct? Want to make sure I'm still on board with this "solution" and this "compromise".

So, Linden Labs part of the "compromise" is to lose a source of revenue. The casino owners and profiteers side of the compromise is... nothing, right? I mean, I didn't see anything about what the gambling industry in SL is giving in your proposed "compromise".

So, let that slide. Boils down to one essential suggestion: Get Linden Labs out of the business of buying and selling L$'s (get rid of LindeX).

This will cost them revenue.

Again, because this is really the sticking point: How much revenue will your suggestion cause Linden Labs to lose?

(PS: I live in Texas, and yes, those laws concerning vibrators and other sex toys are on the books. They aren't enforced, like thousands of other laws that are equally inane in every state, but they are on the books. But, your constant attempts to compare REAL MONEY in Second Life gambling to fake representations of things like guns, vibrators, etc, continues to fail, sorry. It's real money. Just like your black jack winnings at Harrah's in Las Vegas is real money. If you don't believe me, go ask the IRS.)

(PSS: I can't believe anyone honestly believes that all those casino's in Vegas and the long long history of organized crime vis a vis "gambling" is an "entertainment" business. As a rule people ain't playing slots for entertainment, they are GAMBLING. The words "entertainment" and "gambling" have two different meanings, they are not synonymous.)

Entertainment is what you give gamblers to take thier minds off losing their money.

Date Open Rate Close Rate Volume Min Rate Avg Rate Max Rate Min Qty Avg Qty Max Qty
2007-07-31 266 266 64,844,073 265 269.43 277 9 8,621 2,313,251

todays latest market data.. (sorry about the spacing)

the link... https://secure-web5.secondlife.com/currency/market.php

so assuming that one can take the average amount per transaction, and from that attempt to estimate the NUMBER of transactions, the revenue amounts to 8423.50 from the buyers, and 2256.49 from the sellers.

for a total of 10679.99 USD revenue on july 31, 2007 from the Lindex.

the link... https://secure-web5.secondlife.com/currency/market.php

I actually think the transaction count would be less, but there I cannot find the emperical data to back that up.

my formula to calculate the fees charged to buyers: =(64844073/269.43)*0.035
my formula to calculate the fees charged to sellers: =(64844073/8621)*0.3

(i can replace with variables if you need it to be more clear, let me know.)

So buy not using the Lindex, I surmise that it would have been 10,679 USD in lost revenue to Linden Labs.

That may sound like a lot of money, but for two reasons that I will put forth, I don't think it is as far as a percentage of revenue to LL.

1) the amount of $L exchanged on the lindex in the last 24 hours was L$40,573,634 at the time of this writing. That is a 38% decrease from the 31st of July. So i think it is a fair assumption that the amount of revenue to linden labs was 6621.59. I do not know, perhaps it was just a slow 24 hours. or perhaps it has something to do with the loss of gaming.

2) look at this link, http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php
asuming ONLY 42597 users paying a monthly fee of just 9.95 (i pay 125), that comes to $ USD 423,840 PER MONTH. Please keep in mind my assumptions of only $9.95 a month per premium user. As you can see, the amount of revenue that would be lost from not having the lindex, is inconsequential when you compare it to the amount of revenue garnered from premium memberships, and I am giving the benefit of the doubt to you by only calculating an AVERAGE of $9.95 a month. This of course does not take into account many other sources of revenue for LL, for instance selling Islands, selling land on the new continent, uploads, etc.

The reason I believe that eliminating the Lindex is a good idea is because by doing so LL could greatly increase the amount of USD generated to more than make than make up for the paltry 200k (again being generous) a month by continuing to increase the money flow to all residents, - those who gamble in world, and those who don't.

I believe by eliminating any kind of gaming for $L is akin to the cure being worse than the disease.

Thanks for listening.

P.S. i wish i had more complete data to answer your question with. anything you can provide is greatly appreciated.


(oh and by the way as well, first of all, if i win money at Harrahs in the real world, I am responsible for paying taxes on it, and it is the IRS' responsibility to collect it.)

If i make income by selling something on the internet, whether it be automobiles, books, or my good looks, it is MY responsibility to report it as income, and the IRS' responsibility to collect it---- AND THAT INCLUDES SELLING $L)

At first I found this thread interesting, now I've become very bored with it. When I read the group notice in world about this forum it stated there was interest in hearing all views on the subject. Since then it's become obvious to me that there was an expectation that the vast majority of residents would unite together to get LL to bring gambling back in some manner.

It appears to me that most residents are level headed enough to understand and respect the new policy, whether they like it or not, or really just don't care. Once it became obvious this groundswell didn't happen this thread turned into name calling and fuzzy logic. (The fuzzy logic was really there from the start).

Yawn. I'm bored. Moving on

Linden labs does not make their revenue on LindeX. They make it via land tiers. With so many people cashing out and leaving, they are going to lose much much more revenue in lost land tiers then they would lose ditching LindeX
Also proior to LindeX. We got all kinds of bonuses like for traffic, being on the top 20 places, ratings ,stipends and dwell. They got rid of thta to help the value of lindens. They couldnt keep dumping free money in here and have a real economy.
I know it can run without LindeX. I think people are missing that point. We dont want the ability to trade lindens for real $ taken away, just handled by a third party to release LL of liability. So we can play our games again, Still reading a lot of people thinking taht moving the servers to another country is a solution and its not. Read prior posts about this.

I have done many things in Sl. I have built, made textures, made clothes, taught clases. Everything i have ever made i give away for free. Just makes me feel good someone likes it so i give them one. My love though is poker. I have played since i was 5 years old. So i built a small poker house here. I did not do it to get rich. I wanted a cool place for ppl to play poker, laugh, listen to music. Like a home poker game . Thats what we had. In defense of texas hold em poker, it is a game of SKILL. It it wasnt, you wouldnt have professional players.
Do i feel like what i was doing is illegal. No !!!! And for one simple little fact. I NEVER have cashed out lindens for money, all the money i ever made playing poker in sL has went back into sL. I am a damn shopaholic lol. ANd now i havent bought anything since the ban. So for anyone that wonders how this effects everyone- thats how. A lot of us make money playing games. for the majority of SL thats the only way to make money, becasue not everyone can make content to sell. Or some like me that make things choose not to sell them.
Still waiting for the lindens to talk to us lol

Wayne Newton!

Just closed my account....I used gambling as a way to help pay my land tier for my club, with a roulette wheel, blackjack and slot machines. Now this income has been taken away from me I cant survive in SL. I can't really say that being able to buy virtual shoes and dresses is really my idea of fun, I actually enjoyed running a club and DJ'ing, but I'm not a charity!!

The people that came to my club really enjoyed playing the Sploders and playing blackjack was fun for some people too. We welcomed everyone, no matter what colour or creed. I've even seen posts here about gambling and religion...see..SL IS just like RL...we just pretent it's not....but sadly the same rules apply...the loudest get heard and the little folk suffer.

Gambling isn't evil, it's just another way to spend money life. I know LL was put under pressure...so my argument is with the US government as well and not entirely at the door of LL

Saying that....LL cost me a lot of money by allowing people to sell me a product they knew was going to be made illegal. It's the lack of warning that made me angry, no stop doing it by this date....just a swift cut of the knife.

Well LL wont miss me...they probably wont miss my $125 a month tier either and to be honest i'm not going to miss LL. You even made the friends list harder to use today...final straw.

Can I have your stuff?

Byer Bye

Ok case #1.
http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/06/16000_jackpot_t.html#more

Case #2 no link, but the story goes, a person wins 160K Jackpot from a certain CHARM Gaming Center. When the person cashed out there was no funds available. When given evidence to the owner, hard evidence, witness evidence ect. The owner paid a small amount of funds as hush money. That was insulting very vididly, the owner removed the said machine, then bad mouths the maker of the said machine. This of course sounded exactly as what the owner in case #1 did so not to repeat all over again. They are so simular, just names and amounts are identical. Prior to this large jackpot, it was said there was a few 30 to 40K jackpots also not paid out.

They both refused to payout a jackpot.

Yeah...I'll leave it all dumped somewhere....ah...but it's all non-transfer...doh

Isn't banking, renting/buying land, inventing scripted goods, etc., just another form of gambling? OMG! Call the SEC.

Gambling, like sex, is fun. That's why I do it.

LL found a solution, they got rid of gambling! Whooo!! at last! GJ Lindens.