Gaming issue in SL- a solution?

I am sorry to hear that and yes, that was just flat out inconsiderate and wrong in my opinion. A casino or poker house should NOT be run in any sim that has residential areas just for that reason. By most designs, they are laggy. But even without that, the lag induced by so many people in one sim, and all their worn scripted objects on top of filling a sim up so that you can't even get home.. *sighs* Yes, I've been in that situation before too.

I had the opportunity to open my own once but it would require I open up on a mainland area first then expand later. I instead partnered up with someone that had his own islands, and was trying to bring life to his place.

Business owners, ALL business owners; casinos, clubs, malls, EVERYONE; needs to be considerate towards the other people surrounding their establishment. Will people be able to get to their homes? Will the lag be too bad to make the area enjoyable? Will other business owners be impacted negatively by the presence of your place? Ask yourselves these things before setting up and building.

And for heaven's sakes, realize one thing. You CAN have a beautiful establishment AND low lag IF you build specifically for the needs of SL instead of building to the needs of what you think other people would like to see. You CAN have both!

People in the gaming industry are no different than you. We work long hours, have things we have to pay -we have all the same issues to deal with. We also want to have the ability to trade L for USD. And try to make up for rl expenses too.


You have missed the point completely on that.

There is no risk to losing the exchange of L to USD. A third party can handle it just exactly the same way it was done prior to the LindeX.


The part of your response regarding the offensiveness of the casino industry is completely laughable to me. For God's sake, you people have sex with animals and tie each other up and beat and gag and rape each other for fun here and you want to criticize the gaming industry because it's ugly?. COME ON! Lets not get into a debate on courtesy or offensiveness, much less on what should or should not be allowed in SL. I don't find any of that stuff any less offensive because it occurs in a really nice attractive lag free "build." But dammit I think you have a right to do it in SL, even in an ugly build, full of lag, if ya want. If LL banned your right to do that I'd stand for your right. Because what they take away from you, they take from me even though I may not participate in it or approve of it.

Lag will not be an issue for you if the grid is closed. I'd much rather see a bunch of ugly builds than none at all. And yes I would embrace lag also if it meant keeping SL alive.

Why would you think no one in the gaming industry works? I worked seven days a week for the last six months at the best job in the world. Lucky for me it was more fun than work. And I know lots more people who worked harder than me.

If you are selling something in world, then you are one of many people who will suffer from the gaming ban. You don't mention your concerns about the effect the ban on gaming has had on SL or your business, but I imagine that is exactly the reason you are here. I can see how hard it was for you to come here and offer support just based on your lengthy reasons for not wanting to.

I appreciate your response truly. It is apparent that you put much thought and effort into it.

He he.....I can't fault that observation.

First, the $L spent stats are misleading. You see, gambling inflates this figure dramatically. For example, say I but L$1000 in tokens, and spend some time gambling. At the end of my session, I have $800 in tokens, which I cash in. Net result is my $200 loss, but it shows up in statistics as $1800 "spent".

Gambling should be considered an entertainment industry, and for economic statistics, only the net income/loss of the business should be considered. The distribution among gamers is not economically significant.

So, we have no way of knowing how significant the change in the economy has been from this statistic. Looking at the flow of real money in and out of SL might be a better indication, but that could be misleading too. Land values are affected, of course, because a large amount of land was used in a now illegal industry. This will stabilize.

Second, the solution proposed here would potentially allow gaming (well, only if there was NO legal way to exchange $L for RL currency -- which is questionable). But perhaps it would be at the expense of other SL industries, and that would need to be considered carefully.

For example, the vast majority of SL residents don't create content. They put in a few bucks a week of US$ and shop like crazy -- because it's fun to shop and a LOT cheaper than in RL. Getting rid of legal methods of exchanging $L to RL currency would kill this market almost completely. (And no doubt it would dramatically increase the number of escorts.)

Note that the above points are true regardless of whether LL sells $L. I believe the truth there is that LL generally acts only as agent in the Lindex -- other wise it wouldn't be an "exchange" and there would be no "fair market value" other than what LL is willing to pay -- but LL is the source of $L in a number of ways, many or all of which are labeled as "sources" in their economic statistics. The stipend, for example. There may be other ways of LL injecting $L into the economy, *including selling $L on the Lindex*.


=== bottom line ===

This is an idea based on valid merits and worthy of serious consideration. However, the negative consequences would be dramatic and probably much more severe than the loss of gaming.

Are content creators seeing a sharp decline in sales? Would they see a sharp decline in sales if this proposal were implemented?

The figure states very clearly USD spent. The LindeX activity is L traded on the exchange.

What industry in SL is not considered entertainment? This is a video game. It's only incidental that you can earn real money playing it.

The solution proposed would allow gaming AND the trading of L, just not with the LindeX because it would not exist. Explain why this would be a threat to other businesses? They all operated quite well prior to the LindeX.

The whole point of this thread is that the ban on gaming is a threat to other businesses.

You're right, the vast majority don't create content. It would be interesting to know how many purchase L as opposed to not, but I think it's safe to say that the majority "earn" L in the game, or rather they DID while there were opportunities for them to do so. The LindeX activity doesn't seem high enough to support a majority of 8.5 million members or even half that number.

"Are content creators seeing a sharp decline in sales?"

A good question and the only thoughtful comment in your post, I'm afraid. The answer is a resounding YES!

Would they see a sharp decline in sales if this proposal were implemented?

NO!

While this is a very valid solution and would help *our* cause, it does harm the other industries and in the end, would harm Linden Labs itself. A lot of people use the money they make here to buy their islands and pay tier fees, etc. People come here because of how hard Linden Labs marketed the money making opportunities here. This is a solution that in the end, would do more harm than good. We don't want to harm the economy, the other industries, OR Linden Labs. We need to come up with a solution that doesn't effect any of the others, or has a positive effect instead.

Now one game I played long ago sold speed potions. (They were needed for additional actions or moves if you used up your daily allotment.) What the players then did was to trade these speed potions between each other for goods or services. As they became more plentiful on the market, people would gather them together and sell them to each other for cash.

Something like this could work, though there'd need to be a separate forum that everyone could visit, not just premium accounts. Maybe an in world atm type thing that would direct people to a web page. This way, LL isn't saying that $L has value, but they are still allowing for people to trade $L amongst themselves like we already do. The only difference is that LL takes themselves out of the middle. The downside would be the need to have a Paypal account to send or receive money in this fashion.

There would also be a slight drop in the economy this way, but a drop that would pick up. Linden Labs would have to keep up with the economy so that they didn't underprice or over price $L.

The other draw back is those speed potions soon became so expensive that it was hard to afford them with ingame methods, but still easily available with cash methods.

This would resolve this issue and future ones, but we also have to take into account the "pain in the ass" factor. Would it be too much of a pain in the ass for other residents to use? Would they want to give their rl payment info, (paypal) to their peers for trading purposes? Would this cause the goods and services within SL to go either higher or lower in price dramatically?

What if one of our plentiful banks decided to take over $L exchanges? This is also another option. Another third party source from within SL. Ginko, for example, could set up a web page where you give your payment info to them, and they act as the third party source as LL does, matching buyers with sellers.

Hmm... Maybe *this* is the type of new technology mentionedin the policy?

HELLO LINDEN LABS!!! WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK OF THE OPTIONS IN THESE THREADS? A lot of people are coming together to try to work it out guys. It'd sure be nice if we had your input!!!!

Damn. Did I misread his post? I thought he was saying to let LL sell us $L, but not to allow us to resell them for cash.

That's what I get for reading posts when tired, huh?

Graciella, what solution are you referring to? I didn't see one proposed in the post you quoted.

Thanks, I stand corrected and should have read more carefully. My guess is the majority of gambling earnings goes right back into RL money, and this is not such a huge impact on SL economy -- but that's just a guess. No doubt it is still a significant hit on the economy.


I'm talking about *within the SL economy*. Content creators create content. Casinos don't; they just redistribute wealth and skim off a fraction. A small fraction per gamble, but a large fraction per gambler. In any case, it's a service, not a product.


I suspect that if it is *legal* to trade $L for $US, then LL will get hit by the regulations. But perhaps not, and following this suggestion would at least buy them time.


You can disagree with my comments without being insulting. Try it; you'll get more respect.


I bet you're wrong, despite your clever use of capitals.

I also bet we'd see less content creation. I don't create for $US, but many folks do.

She's talking about the OP's suggestion.

My understanding is that they simply close the Lindex. Allow others to exchange $L, just not do it themselves.

They would still be parties in the exchange, since they provide the *mechanism* for $L exchange (SL and the various servers). Whether this difference is legally significant is debatable, but it's certainly possible.

Does providing the mechanism for exchange differ significantly from acting as the agent in the exchange (and deriving a commision)? I sure don't know, and I bet it would take a court case to figure it out. If anyone has the legal background to address this issue with authority, I'd be very interested.

Every casino operator I know created most of their own content, including the buildings, landscaping, slots, chairs, dance floors and incidental decor. They put in as many or more hours than anyone else in creating a business and invested more RL dollars than most. The only difference is that they don't "sell" their products, they use them to earn L. Yes they sold what they could for USD if possible, but most were not at that point. This is no different than ANY other business. That is the point of business isn't it? To make money right? Yes they were a service, but also a business just like any other. Fact is, it's not as easy as it looks to actually make money and most people are diversified in their business efforts. Many are scripters that code their own slots and games. My boss was a scripter and a builder. He made his slots, video poker and "slingo" game himself.

My intent is to neither insult you nor be clever. I get no respect here because I stand for something you don't have any respect for. You and a couple other posters here have made that more than apparent. Clearly your intent is to belittle and speak against the proposed solution as though it's purpose for being presented here is to benefit only the gaming industry at the expense of all others. It doesn't do that.

My caps were simply explanation points, if you will, that express my sole purpose for posting here - the SL economy is in decline and will not improve unless we can find a way to bring gaming back to SL. It is an integral part of the economy and without it, other businesses will fail at an alarming rate. A solution, along with protecting LL as well, has been proposed. LL will not likely consider it or even look at it unless a significant number of people get behind it or offer a better one.

It would be more productive to do a little research first to understand the issues before jumping in to make guesses. I did and expect no less of anyone else who posts here.

Oh and I wouldn't bet if I were you. That's been banned.

If so, she wouldn't be on my side would she? She is as tired as I am fighting the ignorance and complacency of LL and others who make little effort to understand the issues, with very little support from those we are trying to help, such as LL and people opposed to the gaming industry itself.

Any third party can create a mechanism or currency. In this instance, the game and activities in it are not subject to liability unless the owners of the game promote the trading of L for USD with respect to gaming. By simply not being engaged in trading L, the liability is removed for LL. Players will trade L from gambling at their own risk with a third party.

Actually, no. The majority of money from the gambling industry stayed within SL with the exception of owners cashing out enough to pay tier fees and subscription fees.

Let's take the poker houses for example. In poker, with each hand that is played, there is a small percentage that goes to "rake". Now in most of the houses, half of that rake went to the dealer, leaving the other half to the house itself. Now of THAT half, you also have employees to pay, such as your managers, hosts if you have them, builders, scriptors, accountants, etc. I was paying over 60k per week in salaries. Then cash out what is left to pay tier fees.

Okay, so half goes to the dealers, then of the half the house has left, they pay their salaries. This money usually stays within SL. Most of our dealers had their own clubs, or shops, or hobbies that they needed to fund within SL. Dealing made it possible. Most of my hosts and managers, same thing.

How it works with the other places, I don't know. I didn't work any of the casinos, I worked poker houses. To me, there is a HUGE difference.

And yes, we DO create content too hon, we just create it geared towards our players. For example, the little poker cards we sent to every single player of ours the morning the ban occurred. Anther example would be the tshirts and clothing designed towards players. The tools that we design for each other that make our jobs easier. The games themselves are manufactured by players. They didn't just pop up from thin air hon. The only difference is, with the games now. they are unsellable. Nobody is going to buy what they can't use. We do a LOT more than "skim off and redistribute the wealth."

If this regulation is lifted, or if we come to a compromise, I'd like to extend an invitation to you to come and work in my place for one month. I'll put you 2 weeks as a host then 2 weeks as a dealer so that you can see for yourself how our places operate. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

Okay guys. I simply misread his post. lol It happens.

Let's not jump at each other here, but instead talk and see if there is a reasonable compromise that we can all make. Because there IS but only if we all work together on this issue.

And yes, I am frustrated with those who choose to take sides on an issue without actually taking the time to do the research to find out what the issue is to begin with. But to be fair, those opposed to the gaming industry itself, are for the most part, either uneducated as to how the gaming industry works, or have had very bad experiences with poorly run casinos that didn't give a rat's patootie about how other people felt.

And honestly, they piss me off too. No matter what kind of establishment you run, it must be fair and honest with everyone. Customers, those around you, etc. It will not succeed at all if you are not fair to everyone. And it makes the rest of us in the industry look bad too.

Regarding the OP...

What a long winded way of saying:

"LL might get away with harboring internet gambling parlors by letting 3rd party agencies perform all LindeX like functions."

Oh, and they'll likely have to stop handing out L$ in the form of stipends as well, just to be on the up'n'up.

Let me ask, which is the better business model:

A large percentage of weaker revenue... or 0% of stronger revenue?

(lindex & no gambling vs. gambling & no lindex)

As a matter of fact, all casinos need to regulated by a gaming commissioner according to law. All casinos are required to hold a percentage of their jackpots on hand. I really doubt most casinos in SL do that. That is the reason they are regulated.

My point is that I do not want them in SL, and I don't care if you think LL wouldn't be liable, you don't really have a say-so... I can't see how you can take a stance on you own speculations... I don't blame LL for avoiding as much government interferences as possible.

Nice try with the "research and facts" talk, I ain't buying it...

As long as there is a Lindex, it isn't play money. That is all the Government needs to step in and ruin it. I would rather have the Lindex, than gambling. I would prefer that the Lindens never put GOM put of business and made the Lindex. I wish they would have kept it a game, but they didn't. Because of that we have to be concerned with the IRS getting involved.

There is an admitted catch 22, in all this. My whole point to this is to not do anything that can cause the Government to get involved.

LL does not 'sell' the $L,, the $L is sold and bought between users. LL only acts as a central agent. The ONLY way LL can change the going rate in USD for the $L is to buy or sell $L TO OR FROM the users. Even if they do that it is still completely a market driven force.

This is not to say that LL does NOT reserve the right to issue more $L into the money supply. They as a de facto user of the service reserve every right to do so. If they wanted to they could start buying up the $L, and increase the exchange rate that way if they felt there was too much $L in the supply. They can also sell $L if they choose, to stabalize the $L, as clearly stated in the TOS. (which I am sure everyone has read).

http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php

a few quotes from the TOS;....

"You acknowledge that Linden Lab is a service provider that may allow people to interact online regarding topics and content chosen by users of the service, and that users can alter the service environment on a real-time basis. Linden Lab generally does not regulate the content of communications between users or users' interactions with the Service. As a result, Linden Lab has very limited control, if any, over the quality, safety, morality, legality, truthfulness or accuracy of various aspects of the Service."

*IF ANY* they say (had to point that out)

"1.3 Content available in the Service may be provided by users of the Service, rather than by Linden Lab. Linden Lab and other parties have rights in their respective content, which you agree to respect. "


IN OTHER WORDS... I can sell my content, WHICH INCLUDES my $L for whatever I want. I can sell it for other intellectual content, I can sell it for a real world coffee table, I can sell it for Yen, I can sell it for a deep swedish massage in SL OR RL. AND according to that I can sell my $L for REAL US DOLLARS.

SO.. by being agreeing to respect the premise that content (including $L) is only a license to intellectual property that can be freely traded, then you have agreed to the fact that ANY property you own MAY be sold for whatever you want. Now if you pay too much $L for a coffee table in SL, or for that matter a real world coffee table, then please refer to the first quotation from the TOS.

"You acknowledge that Linden Lab and other Content Providers have rights in their respective Content under copyright and other applicable laws and treaty provisions, and that except as described in this Agreement, such rights are not licensed or otherwise transferred by mere use of the Service. You accept full responsibility and liability for your use of any Content in violation of any such rights. You agree that your creation of Content is not in any way based upon any expectation of compensation from Linden Lab. "

"SUCH RIGHTS ARE NOT LICENSED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED BY MERE USE OF THE SERVICE" (my quotation marks)

the user accepts FULL responsibility and liability for the users use, right?.. so if possessing a virtual couch is against the laws of your jurisdiction, then that is your problem, not LL's problem.

I am also free to sell any land that I might purchase from LL to whomever I want for whatever I want. It doesn't matter if I am making a profit or not, in fact that is not LL's business to even be concerned with that. If i own some virtual land, I can go to to my RL friend down the street, and say, "joe, i have something you may want to buy. Joe says, ok, what is it?, I tell him it is 512 sqare meters of cyber space. Joe says, OK!.. I will give you $30 USD!" and we consumate the transaction. Joe gets the virtual land, and i have 30 USD I can spend anyway I want. I can even buy $L from my friends in SL IF I WANT TO, and they are WILLING to sell them to me at my BID. I CAN'T buy them directly from LL.

Heck,, LL won't sell them to me anyway.. no matter how much I pleaded and begged,, they would simply not sell them to me. And who am I to think they have them to sell anyway?... i suppose they could short them to me, and hope to buy them back cheaper before they delivered them, but that would be totally up to them.

I really think LL is erring on the side of caution here because they do not want the legal expenses of trying to defend the FACT that they are not facilitating gambling. I believe it was purely a business decision that the amount of money they would lose as a business by eliminating the gaming industry would be less than the amount of money they would lose trying to defend themselves against the US Department of Justice.

The issue really isn't the gaming, the issue is the expense LL would incur if they had to send out a 1099 form to every user that made over 600 USD dollars paid to them by LL.

THAT is exactly why, in my opinion, they should eliminate the Lindex, let open market forces handle the exchange of $L for USD, YEN, Euros, Etc. This way it completely alleviates them from the responsibility of taxation issues, and as they point out, leave it to the users world, and the user's imagination.

and to the users responsibility for the user's own actions within the service provider--- LL.

Ramo Benedek

Why would they have to stop handing out $L? This action would take it back to what $L is meant to be anyway, the Linden Labs version of Monopoly money. And they wouldn't be harboring "internet gambling parlours" because in order to gamble, by definition of the law, it'd have to be something of value. Monopoly money has no value. And they'd still be able to SELL $L, just not do the reverse exchange of cashing it in.

I actually see this as a win win situation not just for Linden Labs and the gaming industry. (And that IS what this is, a gaming industry, not gambling; because, unlike most of you guys, we don't see $L as real money) I see this as helping out in the future as well.

You don't think we don't keep jackpots on hand huh? *laughs hard!* Do you know what happens if someone wins the jackpot and doesn't get paid? They file something called an abuse report, and the owner of the machine faces disciplinary action through LL for theft.

As far as you not buying it, some choose to be ignorant. That is of course, your choice. I'm not the one that looks bad for your choice to remain ignroant. *shrugs*

Actually LL does not get involved in such cases. There was a very famous example of this recently involving a prominent SL business woman I know. It made a lot of the SL news papers.

Please do your research before casting the ignorant word around.

And no, I am not anti casino.

it is to mitigate fraud.

if someone gets to the point of increasing thier billing/trading limits. A reasonable person would believe that they are savy enough to not gamble at a disreputable casino, or take an undo risk with thier $L.

I have never known a casino in SL to refuse to pay out a jackpot... perhaps that has happened, but i am not aware. I would love for someone to post an example of that happening.

What I AM aware of is that the so called 'banks' in SL completely capped withdrawel limits after the gaming ban.

i find that very interestting as well as the disclaimer to anyone who was willing to BET on such banks in the Ginko (or whatever it is called) disclaimer on thier website.

but after all, if we are not able to talk, then we dont have to worry about fraud anyway, right? or money laundering?,, or vices?..

hmmm.. you know I KNEW this internet thing would never work.

(oh, by the way,, i am a celibate furry)