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Gaming issue in SL- a solution?

Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
07-29-2007 12:07
This is Ramo Benedek adding a thought to this very well written analysis and concrete suggestion of a REAL SOLUTION.

When you get this, if you agree with it, send it to every Linden you can find with a nice little IM telling them what you think about it and whether you think its a good solution. This will be just as good as a signature on any petition. like the author says, strength and resolution is in the numbers- NOT in the disjointed complaints. This was well researched, sources cited, and a solution offered. If we are professional, sensible, and logical, I feel there IS a solution to what is a problem for both the residents and LL. So please send it on to everyone you can think of. And we can make this better for all. Thank you!

******************************************************


Protesters in SL concerned about the ban on gaming policy change, are either just sitting around whining and demanding that LL remove the ban or they don't know what the heck is going on. Many of the protests have degraded into American bashing or ridiculing by people who suddenly found something to alleviate their boredom by harassing protestors. I have personally brought people together for protest and watched in disgust, acutely aware that it is getting us nowhere. I've never been bombarded with so much spam and petitions than as has been thrown out by the protesters groups. Everyone and their alt has created a protest group and written a petition based on their own ideas. This is how protests fail - people just get discouraged and move on. I'm willing to bet that every single one of you reading this now who has participated even for five minutes in a protest has been subjected to ridicule or heckling - and received more unsolicited spam from group noitices than all the poker groups combined could possibly conceive of. We have to squash this annoyance and arm ourselves with some facts. I don't pretend to have all the answers but offer my conclusion based on the small efforts that I have made. There are many more of you who can do soooo much more.

One thing I want to point out that is little understood is that corraling protesters to stand around with signs is not supposed to be done in front of Lindens or where Lindens reside or work necessarily. Lindens could really care less how many signs you have or what they say. The only thing they will care about is the size of the protest (how many people ya got behind ya) and whether there is a solution to the problem that they are willing to implement. Corraling protesters to stand around with signs is solely for the purpose of getting the issues out there to the people you want to JOIN the protest and informing them why they need to join. Maintaining an active presense at regular locations, such as landing points and areas where large numbers can congregate. This keeps the momentum going and people feel like they are participating in something worthwhile.

In order to be effective this protest has to unite under one cause, and we need to share information in order to do that. This notecard is the result of my research and conclusions. I recommend reading it, if you want to protest. I also recommend maybe doing some research on your own. Mine is by no means complete and is hurriedly put together. I did it because I believe we can win a protest, but only if we act quickly to organize an already powerful force. Part of the organizing must include a single simple solution - in other words, a WAY for LL to remove the ban and bring gaming back to SL. There is but one single simple solution and I'll tell ya why.

SL's economy is seriously in danger of collapse. The signs are all there. Even the nay-sayers who were happy to see gambling go bye bye are starting to see the huge IMPACT the gaming ban is having on SL. Land prices have dropped dramatically overnight. Now ordinarily that would be a good thing in most of our eyes, but unfortunately its a sign of mass exchange of tier paying residents. I say exchange rather than removal, because you can bet the land barons are grabbin it up cheap and sitting on it thinkin things will turn around. Others are thinkin wow I can finally afford land. Dollar trading and spending are severely depressed! LOOK AT THE NUMBERS!

The numbers have dropped dramatically. On July 26, 2007 these were the figures:

US$ Spent Last 24h: $2,083,621
LindeX Activity Last 24h: $ 261,886

Today July 29, 2007 (just three days later), these are the figures:

US$ Spent Last 24h: $1,061,728 (down $1,021,893)
LindeX Activity Last 24h: $218,512 (down $ 43,374)

Note that these figures are dropping by the minute! Just reload the page and you will see.

There are several websites that track stats for SL! One can be found here: (its very interesting reading, but save it for later)
http://www.tnl.net/blog/2007/01/05/running-the-numbers-on-second-life/

In addition to this dramatic drop in only three days, in-world banks have placed trading limits on accounts and Ginko has frozen accounts because people are rushing to cash in their L either to buy cheap land or they see the death throes of SL. One person I know was lucky enough to get there early and cashed his 600K. Three others were not so lucky, their accounts were completely frozen - over 200K each. no doubt the bigger money players found themselves in the same situation, but I don't know any so I have no personal contact about that to include here.

Did anyone else notice that the LindeX was offline on the 25th and 28th and the log in screen gave us an error message today? What's really behind that? Is LL hoping to keep these drops in numbers from the majority of us, while they try to figure a way to artificially inflate them. Probably not, but that and the dramatic changes beg the question, "Just what the hell is goin on at LL right now?" I think LL is totally freaking out based on their lack of any meaningful response, and the dropping numbers and land values.

What better time to hit them with a solution?

A major theme from lots of protesters are demands that LL move their servers. This is NOT a solution as you will see with the following facts. Also, lots of people are confusing facts in general: The UIGEA did NOT ban online gaming. It only makes it illegal to fund illegal gaming with US dollars. (And no one knows what the hell is truly illegal in the online arena at this moment) Also, LL did not ban gaming because internet gambling is illegal in CA.

[read the law here - http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ347.109 (highlights that the politicians want ya to swallow - yawn!)

or read the whole damn thing here: http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/financialsvcs_dem/21frank_004_xml_(2).pdf]
(dbl yawn!)

In a nutshell, the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA) aka the Barny Frank Bill, came into effect July 2007 with restrictions on operators who ";(1) being engaged in the business of betting or wagering (2) knowingly accept (3) proceeds from credit cards, electronic fund transfers and checks (4) in connection with with the participation of a bettor (5) in unlawful Internet gambling, which is the sponsorship of online gambling that violates any other federal or state anti-gambling law."

LL isn't in the business of wagering or betting per se, but processing all the proceeds from credit cards over the LindeX makes LL 100% liable for all gaming activity in SL because the L is traded for US dollars through the LindeX. If L wasn't traded for US dollars, it would have no value and just be Lindens play money. That breaks no laws.

This single business aspect (LindeX) of LL precludes any gaming ever being allowed in SL again, unless the law is changed. Changing US law takes years of lobbying and millions of dollars, and you can bet the law was lobbied "for" by real life casinos for whom internet gambling poses a very real threat. So ya not only have to fight the gov, but ya gotta fight a really well established organization with deep pockets.

The UIGEA does not directly address the legality of online gaming, but only the use of US dollars to do it. The bill provides for individual states to determine the legality of internet gaming. That in itself is not bad, but the scary thing is that it places the power to enforce the law into the hands of a single person - The Director of Financial Crimes and Enforcement.

Who was it that said Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely? (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288200.html). Who really cares except that it is proven over and over again.

It goes without saying that LL watched this process closely and thoroughly investigated what they felt their options were. I guarantee you the US government was knocking at LL's door long before they bothered to post the policy change. Although LL is silent about any ongoing investigation into LL or gaming in SL, look at some of what's been in the news for over a year.

The Barney-Frank bill was passed in Oct 2006 and signed by Bush in Nov 2006. It didn't become law until July 2007, yet in mid-May of 2007, the US Dept of Justice crossed international borders and seized over 9 million dollars of Canadian-based Citadel's assets. Citadel had even stopped processing online payments for gambling in Jan 2007, right after Neteller did. Neteller is a UK based online payment processor that recently forfeited millions to the US, under investigation by the US Attys office (read about them here http://www.neteller-group.com/press/en/126.htm and here http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3689631. )

There are also links on the 2nd url to the widely publicized arrest of UK based BetonSports CEO David Carruthers and his co-founder Gary Kaplan who both faced felony charges for promoting online gambling.

Notice these are all prior to the law actually having BECOME law?
These cases did NOT go unnoticed by LL! They were definitely looking around for options or as the saying goes " to cover their ass."

Moving LL's servers somewhere else, is not a real solution considering the fact that the USAO and Dept of Justice crossed international borders to Canada and the UK to prosecute and seize assets and the law wasn't even in effect yet! Moving the servers to a third world country is hardly enticing since it would require an army to protect you to begin with. Who wants to live like that? Now maybe LL did investigate getting rid of the LindeX, but I seriously doubt it. If they did, why didn't they do it? Did they just want to try to fly this thing without losing any profits? Maybe. If so, they are watching SL disintegrate before their very eyes and will certainly be amenable to a solution that can prevent that without too much more damage. The other interesting thing is that SL's residents being what they are, are rebelling like crazy and continuing to game against the ban. This places LL at risk of having SL shut down and LL's assets seized. Again they are at risk of losing EVERYTHING, so yes I believe they want a solution as much as we do.

So what *IS* the solution for LL?

There is only one!! Remove US dollars from the equation!

Yes, the only solution for LL to stay in business at all is to get rid of the LindeX.

Prior to LindeX's launch in Oct 2005, L was traded by third parties, the most notable being GOM. Even though I wasn't here then, I've learned that it wasn't the most efficient method because the L had to be converted to pounds and then to dollars and the LindeX certainly improved that aspect by using US dollars and linking it direct to accounts. Gom had other problems and good points too (google GOM and secondlife if ya wanna read about it.)

LL practically stole the business from GOM in the first place by bringing them to the negotiating table and virtually milking them for their business model. Then LL chucked the deal with them and decided to do it on their own. Yes GOM didn't accept their ridiculously low offer and could have stayed in the picture had they done so, but that's neither here nor there at this point. The important thing is that L can still be traded by a third party and it isn't necessary for LL to do it themselves. If they just stop doing it, they remove 100% of their liability because it takes US dollars out of the equation for them. We get gaming back and they get to stay in business. Yes there are sacrifices on both sides of the issue, because things will have to be recoded and we will no longer have the efficiency of LindeX and will have to find a way to turn our L into real currency. LL has to give up the profits LindeX has nicely provided and lose a little face by giving in the lowly peasants. Give and take is the way of compromise though.

Look at how the LindeX came about to begin with.
On October 3, 2005, LL announced the launch of LindeX - Linden Labs new currency exchange. (read about this here: http://lindenlab.com/press/releases/10_03_05)


Sep 29, 2005: "Gaming Open Market, which for the last two years has facilitated the sale of $2.76 million in currency from virtual world "Second Life," is getting out of the game." (read about this here: http://news.com.com/Online+exchange+dumps+Second+Life/2100-1043_3-5885924.html)

After opening SL's membership on Sep 8, 2006, LL developed significant membership numbers which helped them attract large companies to SL. Why they thought this was a good idea is beyond me except that they were able to sell lots and lots of private islands. This is now slowing to a crawl.

The thing is, even though SL boasts almost 8.5 million members, there are some things that LL doesn't advertize about that figure. Such as the fact that it includes every single person who logged in one time and never returned, and roughly eleventy gazillion alts. So the figure is highly inflated.

The more telling statistic is the log-ins for any given time. There are never more than 50k logged at peak times and the average is under 30K. Big companies who came to SL I think, were expecting much more. Some are leaving faster than they came. Visit their sites in SL and you will find empty calendars of events, deserted sims, or that they have already closed. Aloft (big hotel chain), Sun Micro Systems, Nissan, Dell, Best Buy's Geek Squad Island, IBM, Reebok and American Apparel to name a few. With such small active membership numbers (30-40K at any given time), these companies are really finding no compelling reason to stay. (Thank goodness.) They either expected big advertising possibilities or just wanted the publicity from being associated with Secondlife. At any rate, they are either expanding to other virtual worlds where the learning curve isn't so high and the benefits so low or they are leaving for them altogether. And with the current crumbling conditions, many members are leaving too.

Read this from a resident who says I'm Quitting Second Life - Here's Why (this was posted right after the ban on gaming)
..."The amount of land owners that put their land up for sale skyrocketed, driving prices for land down. Overnight, Second Life became what they call a “buyer’s market”, in the real estate world. If you take a look at some real world “buyer’s markets”, you’ll see a connection, and see the reasons “why” the prices have dropped so low to be called that.

What was a thriving “seller’s market”, starting in December and January (which, in the real world indicates a great place to live… good jobs, good schools, good opportunities) had suddenly become a place where you could pick up so much land, so cheap, that anybody could afford to own land. Not only did landlords have to worry about a new continent being built, flooding the market and driving prices down (which was one of my original reasons for getting out of that business), but they had to worry about the availability of existing land going “up for sale”, creating such a large drop in prices that their tennants could easily buy land, rather than rent from them, any longer.

There was a run on the in-world banks, with residents withdrawing Linden dollars at a faster rate than ever before. Some of it caused by the instant availability of land, and people pulling out L$ to buy it, and some of it caused by people that saw this as the beginning of the end for Second Life. The value of the Linden dollar dropped to a level that hadn’t been seen in the past eight months, indicating that the number of people “cashing out” was pretty high." (he has much more to say here: http://webfeedcentral.com/)

Something else that many nay-sayers have failed to notice (maybe LL did and just overlooked it) is that the only places jam packed with AV's were casinos, brothels and strip clubs. Now that the casinos are gone, what does that leave us with? Eh? The casino and other gaming operators have lost millions in unrecoverable investment from being shut down with no notice whatsoever. Everything they own related to their now defunct businesses is now worth zero. There have been massive layoffs of employees, not just in gambling but the gaming industry as a whole. Tringo, slingo and other gamers have lost the ability to earn L and now must resort to buying lindens or entering the sex industry if they are otherwise unskilled. Even the scriptors and builders who boast their skills will support them, fail to realize that the very people who buy their products no longer have any ability to earn the L they spent. What? They actually believe other skilled people will buy their products. LOL - skilled people make their own stuff and and are not the big spenders in SL. Only new people and unskilled people are the buyers in SL, beside land purchases and gaming complexes. Without anyway to earn L, the only buyers will be rich people who quite frankly have better things to do with their time - like tend to their real lives in order to stay rich.

So we are seeing the ban on gaming has effected the economy of SL much more than anyone anticipated. The numbers prove that.
We all lose if we don't unite the protest with a solution. LL wants one. I can't believe they don't. That's not to say they aren't complete idiots, but they are the only idiots we have to work with. It really is our world and our imagination, but it won't be soon if we sit back and do nothing. Yes SL has lots of other problems and yes LL is constantly imposing things on us and against our "vision" of SL, but this is the immediate crisis for us all and must be dealt with first.

***************************************
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-29-2007 13:14
From: Ramo Benedek
So we are seeing the ban on gaming has effected the economy of SL much more than anyone anticipated. The numbers prove that.
We all lose if we don't unite the protest with a solution.


Puhlease. One days sampling of money spent in SL, taken on a day when SL just happens to be experiencing dramatic problems with L$ balances, teleports, Search is disabled...

Please, tell me people aren't stupid enough to believe that the ban on gambling has "effected" the economy of SL so dramatically.

"We all lose.." if we don't unite a protest group? Please. Everyone EXCEPT casino owners and the businesses which provide casino owners with the products they need to rip off the foolish and unwary WINS with a ban on gambling in SL. There is utterly ZERO downside to this ban for business owners such as myself (I produce both retail products for sale in vendors and own a bar in SL). ZERO downside. And, frankly, quite a bit of upside.

So, please stop attempting to scare people into thinking the sky is falling, Mr. Chicken Little. *nods nods*
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
the numbers man, the numbers
07-29-2007 13:16
take the time to look at the economic statistics,, and then tell me how much the value in land has changed in the last few days against the rate of change it was before.
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-29-2007 13:20
I'd expect the inflated cost of land to drop some. So... what's the downside of that for the consumers? The buyers of land, who want to build RP zones and bars and homes and yacht clubs and...

Yes? What's the downside?

I've read through your ridiculous screed; the methods of presenting your arguement are laughable, your motives suspicious, the entire thing an excersize in fear mongering. You should be ashamed of yourself, frankly. The sort of endevour I'd expect from someone who, perhaps, has been making money by conning fools by owning a casino, perhaps?

*checks Ramo's profile* I see, yes, looks like the case.

Enjoy your "unified protest" while the rest of us party and celebrate the banning of casinos.
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
my reason for posting...
07-29-2007 13:28
i posted it as a matter of fact. If you read it, all sources are cited. This is not fear mongering, but a simple statement of facts and the possible solution. If you don't want to game in SL, nobody is forcing you to do so. For those who do want to game in SL, then it is a way for them to enjoy themselves 'in world'.
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-29-2007 13:32
Your "facts" are isolated, one sample of economic activity, carefully selected and placed out of any context so as to appear to support your fear mongering.

Your "solution" is for Linden Labs to stop selling $L. Yes, I'm sure that one of the prime methods the company has for making revenue should be eliminated so that you can continue bilking fools out of their money via gambling.

You and your ilk are contemptable, sir. Spreading fear and disinformation to protect your money tree, while the truth is there are no negatives to this ban AT ALL for the non-casino-owning populace and significant postives for us.
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
i am only saying that there
07-29-2007 13:37
has been a precipitous drop in economic activity since the ban. Even though it is a very small sampling, I do believe it is telling. I am not asking you to agree with me, and I take offense to your 'ilk' statement. I am in SL to have fun, and experiment with a virtual economy. I am only pointing out through sources, law, and experience the consequences of the ban, and the possible solution to make it better for the community as a whole. I have no interest in cheating ANYONE out of thier $L.

Why not have a good compromise, instead of flames?

There are a lot of people here who enjoyed the gaming with $L, and a lot of very talented script writers that facilitated it. It is a challenge to write down a slot machine. If you don't believe that, just try it.

*** EDIT ***
Your "solution" is for Linden Labs to stop selling $L. Yes, I'm sure that one of the prime methods the company has for making revenue should be eliminated so that you can continue bilking fools out of their money via gambling.


and since when has LL been selling $L for real money? if they have been then I am out of here if they are just printing money. I didn't think the TOS allowed that.
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-29-2007 13:46
*boggles* What do you think the source of all L$ is? Linden Labs, selling L$ for $.

About $4.08 per $L1000 at the moment.

Your "solution" offered was for LL to STOP doing this. Now you say you don't realize LL is doing this at all? Yes, they print money. They sell as much as they want, adjusting the price as needed. They add new money to the economy constantly, and remove it via tier payments, classified ads, and a few other smaller money sinks.
Rusalka Writer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 314
07-29-2007 13:46
Or create a shell company in the Carribean with a pile of servers in a warehouse outside the U.S.. All in-world casinos live on those servers. Maybe there will be a separate mainland for all this. Require all gambling funds to be held separately from normal funds, and do not allow cash-out of gambling funds into U.S. dollars. Let the U.S. citizens figure out how to get their money. Someone will probably make a fortune offering cash transfers through a foreign currency.
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
please correct me if i am wrong
07-29-2007 14:02
but i thought the source of $L was from the residents themselves,, not LL selling $L for real dollars
tucor Capalini
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 44
07-29-2007 14:47
So...I bust my hump in the Navy only to come back to America and all of a sudden find out that I cannot gamble for fake money in a simulated world.
Got a beef with casinos? Good, stay away from them.
Dont want to gamble? Great, don't.
Far to many people have tried to push their personal fears and insecurities onto regular society. It is very disheartening to see the same in in a simulated world.
I happen to enjoy casions, both in the real world and on Second Life.
I see no issue of force. Noone is being forced to gamble, noone is being coerced to play poker, the black jack tables do not pull you in and force you to pay a fee to leave.

I for one find it very offensive to see "vendors" asking for lindens for crap that was obviously a slapdash job on a saturday morning. Or the exhorbitant fees for items that can be copied infinitley.
Hey I know, maybe we should ban free enterprise within Second Life and have a commitee that you submit works to and they put a price on it! That would keep unscropulous vendors from cheating unsuspecting consumers!
And while we are at it, maybe we should ban offensive avtars too. We can have a viewing commitee right there on orientation island!

Yes I belive with the ban on gambling, and these new implementations we can truly begin to make Second Life a place everyone can enjoy!

Or, we can let people live and enjoy their lives.

Yes, there are mispellings on here. Deal with it!
Akawa Nishi
Registered User
Join date: 6 May 2007
Posts: 1
Gambling?
07-29-2007 15:07
I'm not a gambler, i don't even understand it, but if ppl want to gamble I really don't see any reason why they shouldn't. They're adults arent they?

But linden is not going to deliberatly run foul of USA legislation, however ludicrous that legislation may be.

So, I suggest that those of you who wish to gamble, find a solution. i've no idea what you need to do, but i feel that Ramo's ideas are a good starting point.

And to be honest, i prefer that ppl be allowed to gamble, if only as a defence against the puritanical claptrap opposing it. Its always the same problem. What will be 'clamped down' on next? Nude beaches? Escorts? Sex toys?

Try to bear in mind that Disneyland is for children, and most of us aren't children.
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-29-2007 15:35
From: Ramo Benedek
but i thought the source of $L was from the residents themselves,, not LL selling $L for real dollars


*is utterly amazed*

Mr. Ramo... until you understand the basics of how SL's economy works, maybe you should stop with proposing "solutions" to what is not even a problem. That gambling has been banned in SL is a good thing for the vast majority of residents. That you don't even realize that $L are manufactured by Linden Labs pretty much tells me all I need to know about your expertise in this area. Thanks for playing, I'm done with your thread now.
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
$L for sale..
07-29-2007 16:00
so Dack.. you are saying that everytime i have bought lindens i have bought them from LL, well thank you so much for the enlightment. I was mistaken in thinking i was buying them from users of SL.. perhaps that is why I am a complete dumbass in all of this.

****
and just to make it perfectly clear so everyone who may read this understands, when I buy $L from the Lindex exchange it is actually LL selling them to me? NOT LL acting as agent on the exchange for the user selling the $L????? hmmm.. DUDE! .. does this mean i haven't really sold my $L EVER? i didn't realize it was a bad check deposited into my bank account.. damn man. good thought!
Labrador Laval
Registered User
Join date: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 1
Protest T Shirt
07-29-2007 18:50
I agree with Ramo Benedek.
I made a protest tshirt under my alias Bolle Beerbaum. IM him and ask for the free shirt and wear it in-world.
We protesters should be visible!

Regards,
Labrador Laval aka Bolle Beerbaum
Bradley Bracken
Goodbye, Farewell, Amen
Join date: 2 Apr 2007
Posts: 3,856
There is only one!! Remove US dollars from the equation!
07-29-2007 20:16
I can't even comment about how absurd I find the rest of the post, but can't let this statement go. If a party is not involved in an illegal act (at least by the FBI it is perceived as illegal), it doesn't matter whether they had their hands in the pot or not. Though I hesitate to give an example because there are some differences, I will. A very simple example would be Napster. Part of Napsters argument was that they provided a service and was not responsible for the actions of its members. This argument went nowhere in the courts and it wouldn't work for LL.

Linden Labs isn't moving anywhere just to resolve this problem. If there is a good solution they may find it but I doubt it since their focus in the future, and profit, clearly is a path towards more corporate involvement. SL is a business managed and operated by Linden Labs. Any perception that it is this vast open source mecca of freedom of actions and expression are just that...a perception.

Linden Labs wants to make money and they will be taking a loss without the casinos, there is no doubt. However, people must realize that the employees of LL can be held personally responsible if it is perceived as a gambling operation (which it is). Any solution to this had better be a damn good one and I doubt that there is.

To put it simply, kiss casinos goodbye and get on with your RL and SL. Sometimes things just suck.
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
perception
07-29-2007 20:43
isn't the whole concept of SL a perception? The sex, the money, the scripts the actions? it is only what LL appropiately named it, "SECOND life'.

This is an accounting problem here folks, not a moral one.

Since it is perfectly legal to gamble your hard earned dollars in Vegas or numerous other places around the US.. then why would it not be fair to play marbles in SL?

This is not about the morality of gambling, this is about the ability of Linden Labs to be able to provide a platform for a virtual economy. Which in my opinion they have admirably done with the input of the community who loves it. Regardless of thier own moral viewpoints on gaming.

so as the first post in this thread suggests (in which the sources are cited, and a lot of all night research went into it), a solution would be to get LL out of the selling $L for USD. which they don't really do anyway.

If a player makes or loses thier hard earned dollars buying a car, or cars then they are obligated to pay the tax, or deduct the loss from thier income. It is not LL's responsibilty to do so.

Just like buying or selling stock.
Osgeld Barmy
Registered User
Join date: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 3,336
07-30-2007 00:08
From: Ramo Benedek

Since it is perfectly legal to gamble your hard earned dollars in Vegas or numerous other places around the US.. then why would it not be fair to play marbles in SL?


becuase those marbles have token value for us$ and this particular avenue is in san fran, texas and other places that are not Nevada tunica, jersy or metropolis (along with any other gambling allowed areas you all know of)


BOILS DOWN TO if you dont like it take it up with the US government or the FBI, they are the ones cracking down on the labs to do this
Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
07-30-2007 06:34
From: Ramo Benedek
so Nack.. you are saying that everytime i have bought lindens i have bought them from LL, well thank you so much for the enlightment. I was mistaken in thinking i was buying them from users of SL.. perhaps that is why I am a complete dumbass in all of this.

****
and just to make it perfectly clear so everyone who may read this understands, when I buy $L from the Lindex exchange it is actually LL selling them to me? NOT LL acting as agent on the exchange for the user selling the $L????? hmmm.. DUDE! .. does this mean i haven't really sold my $L EVER? i didn't realize it was a bad check deposited into my bank account.. damn man. good thought!


*Sigh*
I can't believe it has to be explained every time.
Ramo's right. LL does sell *some* L$ on LindeX, but never more than the L$ spent on sinks (creating groups, etc.) in the last 30 days and they only do it when the market stagnates / are no good matches for exchanges (i.e. too great a price difference between what the seller is asking and what the buyer will pay).
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-30-2007 06:53
From: Draco18s Majestic
*Sigh*
I can't believe it has to be explained every time.


1. Where do 100% of the L$'s that are in circulation in SL come from, Draco? Who "made" them?

2. When a user clicks on that blue L$ symbol and uses their credit card to buy L$'s, who are they buying them from, Draco?

No, Ramo is not right.

In the original post the "compromise" being offered was that LL gets out of the business of making L$'s for $'s. (I love when "compromise" involves the OTHER side giving giving giving and "Ramo's side" giving nothing at all?)

Rather essential to his proposal is the concept that LL sells $L's for $, wouldn't you say? Since the entirety of the OP purpose/solution was that LL get OUT of that business.
Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
07-30-2007 07:07
From: Nack Barnes
1. Where do 100% of the L$'s that are in circulation in SL come from, Draco? Who "made" them?


LL made them, but they may or may not own them. Completely different.

From: someone
2. When a user clicks on that blue L$ symbol and uses their credit card to buy L$'s, who are they buying them from, Draco?


Another player. LL acts as mediator.
The converse is also true in this manner:
When I SELL L$ where does the check come from?
And I don't mean who's name is on it, I mean where it originates--just as anything that is deposited to my PayPal account shows up on my bank statement is "from" PayPal, PayPal isn't actually giving me the money.

From: someone
Rather essential to his proposal is the concept that LL sells $L's for $, wouldn't you say? Since the entirety of the OP purpose/solution was that LL get OUT of that business.


You know that LL took over another site that was doing the exchange, right? If LL "gets out" someone else will just start back up again. And nothing will change, L$ will still have an exchange rate to US$ (which, btw, the rate was set by the originating website that sold blocks of L$250 for US$, it fluctuated based on supply and demand, but essentially it was L$250 to $1).
Indya McMillan
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jul 2007
Posts: 10
For Crying out loud
07-30-2007 07:25
Getting nuts of the so called land of the free!
Why not ban all while u r at it??? Get real people linden move your lab to holland problem solved
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-30-2007 07:46
Draco, as with any currency when the issuing institution is holding that currency it becomes zero value. Currency only has value when in the possession of users, not issuers.

If you sell L$ to Linden Labs for cash money, Linden Labs has bought that L$ and it is no longer in circulation, it has no value anymore. When you buy L$ from Linden Labs, they put the L$'s back into circulation, they now have value.

Whether it's poker chips which are behind the counter vs. at the tables or U.S. Dollars sitting in the US Mint vs. in your pocket or L$'s in the possession of Linden Labs vs being held by an avatar, it's the same situation.

Linden Labs sells L$'s to the residents, and this selling of L$'s to residents is the ONLY source of L$'s to enter the economy.

100% of L$'s are sourced at Linden Labs.

Higher demand for L$'s makes the value of L$'s go up, which means Linden Labs makes more profit. Lower demand makes the value of L$'s go down, which means less profit for Linden Labs.

Yes?
Ramo Benedek
a monster kitty
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 41
where LL makes thier money
07-30-2007 14:43
From: Nack Barnes
1. Where do 100% of the L$'s that are in circulation in SL come from, Draco? Who "made" them?

2. When a user clicks on that blue L$ symbol and uses their credit card to buy L$'s, who are they buying them from, Draco?

No, Ramo is not right.

In the original post the "compromise" being offered was that LL gets out of the business of making L$'s for $'s. (I love when "compromise" involves the OTHER side giving giving giving and "Ramo's side" giving nothing at all?)

Rather essential to his proposal is the concept that LL sells $L's for $, wouldn't you say? Since the entirety of the OP purpose/solution was that LL get OUT of that business.



LL may sell $L on the lindex, or they may buy $L on the Lindex, however they only do this to attempt to stabalize the currency, just like a government in the real world would. When you buy $L from in world you are actually buying them from and enitity selling those $L on the Lindex, and visa versa if you sell $L.

from the TOS.... http://secure-web13.secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php

"Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right."

Key words being that LL DOES NOT buy your $L.. an entity other than LL IS buying your $L.

now yes,, they do say they have the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify, and/or eliminate such Currency at its sole discretion. But that does not mean that everytime you buy $L you are buying them from LL.

LL does print $L.. in the form of Stipends. However that amount is relatively insignificant. If LL was to flood SL with $L, we would see skyrocketing virtual inflation.

Also from the TOS.....

"The Service currently includes a component called "Currency Exchange" or "LindeX," which refers to an aspect of the Service through which Linden Lab administers transactions among users for the purchase and sale of the licensed right to use Currency. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of Currency transfer: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (c) the terms "buyer," "seller", "sale" and "purchase" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to the root terms "buy" and "sell," (d) "sell order" and similar terms mean a request from a user to Linden Lab to list Currency for sale on the Currency Exchange at a requested sale price, and (e) "buy order" and similar terms mean a request from a user for Linden Lab to match open sale listings with a requested purchase price and facilitate completion of the sale of Currency. "

This clearly states that LL FACILITATES the sale of $L between USERS. Nowhere does it say that LL is simply selling you the $L.

$L is not money, $L is a license. You are able to sell this license to another user. But this is where LL is in a pickle regarding wagering. Since they are FACILITATING the transaction between users, they have to be sure that they are in compliance with the law.

SO, understandably, they are erring on the side of caution.

That is why in my original post the suggestion is for LL NOT to faciliate these transactions. This way it is completely up to the user to be in compliance with the laws of the jurisdiction they are in. This goes for game operators, and game players equally.

and as far as it being a one-sided compromise, it is not, for the very reason that it would be more expensive, and difficult for a user to use a third party exchange. And LL would not get the transaction fees generated by the Lindex. So there is give and take on both sides of the equation. However the upside to all of this, is that the virtual economy does not suffer, and gamers would be able to spend thier $L as they please, while of course being in compliance with the laws of the jurisdiction they are in.

AND.. Contrary to what has been stated here, I am not a rich casino owner or operator. Yes I have played, and I enjoy the sport. My interest in starting this thread, is one of being able to point out what I believe to be a viable solution to what many view as a serious problem, and being able to have a reasonable intelligent discussion about it. Heck, I may be completely wrong. But I don't think I am. Thanks for reading, Ramo Benedek
Nack Barnes
Bartender Man
Join date: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 66
07-30-2007 15:53
Ramo, you know the TOS states that L$ are not "currency" because if there's one thing governments dislike more than say, illegal gambling, it's somone in their borders issueing their own currency, eh?

De facto, however, L$ is currency. Redeemable for real $, from Linden Labs.

Do you think that the entirety of L$ that enter or leave the economy of SL do so only through, say, stipend payments?

No.

Every L$ you buy from the Lindex you are buying from Linden Labs.

Every dollar you sell on the Lindex you are selling to Linden Labs.

They are the creators, the "printers" of the currency and they sell it to you and buy it from you. Check your credit card statement after purchasing L$ on the Lindex if you are unsure.

*sighs* Jeez guys. If L$ weren't the same essential thing as poker chips at a casino, if L$ were, oh, like WoW gold, then gambling wouldn't be a big issue to the FBI.

It IS a big issue to the FBI. And not 'cause the FBI likes wasting its time investigating it's-not-really-gambling-cause-it's-fake-money in "games". They are busy making sure that Second Life (and the inevitable succesors to SL) aren't havens for illegal gambling, yes?
_____________________
Nack Barnes
:: Firefly's at Blackburne Downport ::
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