A love of unverified.

*Note* I also posed this in Linden Answers but figured some residents should see it as well.



Looking through the forums all I see is complaining from residents about unverified accounts. I just wanted to thank LL. I may not have been around that long even though I have known of the game for some time and there is a reason for that. I'll be damned if i'm going to pay for a game without being able to check it out first. If it was not for the open registration I would have never of started. I am now a paying customer and many, many people I have met have only become paying customers because we were able to jump right in and give this amazing world a shot without opening our purses/wallets and forking over vital info for something we may not even enjoy. I have met tons of unverified people from all over the world that have made my SL days so much brighter. Granted there are some that are there merely to piss off the people that truly enjoy our new home but they are honestly far and few between. This is a formal thank you for putting your trust in us and allowing us at first cynics a chance to fly through the clouds and gaze down in wonder at human creativity.

Paneia

Other games had a trial period, just like LL had. You only needed to give info and while I am happy you have enjoyed your experience, you are also missing the point of the downtime caused by all this griefing.

Since you didn't provide info, I can only assume you are not shopping, and if you were working, downtimes during your shifts which you do not get paid for are also not giving you Lindens to stimulate the economy.

This is gonna sound rude, although it isn't meant to be....

You are not funding SL, paying customers are and they are getting fed up with unverifieds crashing the sims at prime time selling, events, business opportunities, classes, training and all other aspects of the game that are profitable in making them break even. I don't sell much, but I usually sell at least 4-6 outfits a day (I'm pretty small potatoes). I'd still have to pay rent on my spots, cause the owners can't prorate to make vendors happy, then they won't meet their tier prices. Luckily, my job allows me a bit of free space, but most don't have that luxury.

I'm sure most intelligent people will recognize not EVERY unverified is detrimental, but the action as a whole is.

Be happy, even if you had to get verified, you'd never have to pay another cent, while most other games are charging anywhere from 9.99 a month through 24.99 a month, JUST TO LOG ON.

You wouldn't like it if you paid someone to give you 3 perfectly good cookies you loved, fresh from the oven, and 6 months later, the exact same person, gave you another 3 and one was full of salt (busted updates), the second you were told to wait to eat (downtime) and the third, they took away (to pay for tier, which you can't make money if SL is down all the time).

I completly understand what you are saying but to assume automaticly that since I started not too long ago that I have not contributed to the economy is just plain silly. Granted you miss out on selling three items of clothing for that day but someone like me never would have bought one of them if there was no open door policy. Just me and my three closest neighbors (I havent had the brass to ask anyone farther from my home such a personal question yet because I hardly know them) have pumped nearly $400USD into the second life economy, and take into account i've only asked 3 people. All four of us started as unverifieds and most likley would not be suppling that cash flow into SL had they asked for our CC info straight out.
Thats roughly $100,000 Lindens that only four of us have used in the last month and a half that would have never existed. Yes, there are downtimes which everyone hates. Yes the system is buggy. Yes, buisness owners lose out 2 days a week. Compinsate for it just like in the real world. Make bigger, better products. Advertise more. Do a dance wearing a sign promoting your store. Compinsate.

Many unverified users not only HAVE money, but have quite a bit of it to spend.

Many unverifieds choose to WORK for their lindens.. be it by creating a service (dancing, prostitution, etc) or a product (like cars, houses, props, avatars, clothes, etc). it's true, it does take a great deal of effort to start fronm scratch in SL without payment info, and there are a number of places barred to you.. but with a little creative camping, some luck at the freeplay casino games, a few tips, some help from kindly strangers, etc.. I have seen unverified accounts amass thousands of lindens in a fairly short period.

Remember that the only incentive to list paypal/credit information is.. a whopping $250L signup bonus.

I could, and HAVE picked that up with 8 hours of camping. (while asleep!)

The disincentve? Hrm... let's see.. some hacker could break in and steal my credit card or paypal information... No, wait.. that could never happen.

Which violates the TOS, using methods to bypass the 30 minute idle time-out while using server resources.

The paying verifired users are subsidizing the non-paying players. How long do you think Linden Labs would stay in business if everyone were non-verified?

I am all for a free trial period, but think that it should not be open ended. A 6 week trial period, for example should be more than adequate for someone to decide whether they would like to continue playing and paying, or leaving the game.

As Lazarus Long of the Robert Heinlein novels says, TANSTAFL. (There ain't no such thing a as free lunch.) Someone has to pay the bills.

1.

Actually NOWHERE in the terms of service does it state that disabling the away idle timeout is a violation of the TOS. In fact, LL has made it easy to do, simply by using the menu option provided in the client.

CTRL-ALT-D to display the "debug" menus (advanced options)

Client > Character > Character Tests > Go Away/AFK when Idle

Hardly a "Violation of the terms of service" to use a menu option provided by LL.

2.

LL makes money every time someone uploads a texture, buys land, uploads a sound or animation. They make money when you form a group, they make money when your form a partnership, and again when you break that partnership. LL makes money every time someone decides that they want permanence in their builds.. and they opt in to a "premium" account for the priviledge of leasing server space from LL. (they call it owning land).

3.

you right.. nothing is free... Campers are actually losing out on the deal.. They put in time from their lives and gaming experience, and electricity that they most likely have to pay for, and in exchange for the pocket change that the landowners dole out via the camping chairs, the land owners raise their popularity scores in the search. If you're not in the top 100 in your keyword, you're not on the list at all. With dwell this made more sense for landowners.. but it still works out in the wash.

Put simply.. you're angry that you "have to pay".. well you know what? you don't have to pay.. no one does.

Give up your little 117 prim slice of land, live in a sandbox, tolerate greifers every single day, dedicate HOURS and DAYS of computer cycles standing on queue for a choice camping spot, only to have some jerk with a sheild show up and snag it from you.. Scratch your head scrambling for a good way to make a few lindens off every project you make for someone, always trying to trade up, always trying for a bigger slice of the larger pie... Worrying if you'll be able to make the rent on your vendor slot... with no "Stipend" to depend on.

That's what it's like being a non premium account holder.. And it's harder for the unverifieds, who don't have a visa card or paypal account (powered in turn by a credit card). It's not easy living in the real world without credit either.

But if people are willing to take on the added work and stress and hardship.. just to avoid giving out personal information, or risking their credit history on the chance that someone will hack the DB *AGAIN*.... Then how about you stop B*TCHING at them for working harder than you?

Not everyone in this game has a cushy 6 figure salary in a Tech firm. Some of us are living below the pverty line,housebound and ill, on foodstamps, and may not even know where our next month's rent is coming from... And this little video game might actually be all the social interaction we "freeloaders" have.

For the record, I do have payment info on file, and I have used it to buy lindens. I refuse to have a premium account, and have no real use for land, and I also boycott vendors who bar asccess to non-paying friends. It's nothing more than class-greifing. The Haves found a way to greif the have-nots.

And you know what? even with me having payment info on file, I'm ususally scrounging for operating capital.. my unverified friends have more often bought things for me or from me, and outright given me money as gifts... So take your head out of the sand, you don't know what you're talking about.

You're adorable when your angry and I would pinch your cheeks if I could. You need to take a deep breath, relax, and get a hug from someone because you are getting way to worked up over a statement such as "I like unverified". Step away from the computer for a moment, stretch, get a cup of some uncaffeinated beverage and watch a video on youtube of kittens wrestling. It'll help, I swear.

You are right and I stand corrected. While Anti-Idling is not specifically against the TOS, according to Torley Linden, it may be considered violating the Community Standards of Disturbing the Peace. (/139/b4/127502/1.html#post1211025) At any rate it's still using resources. Of course the problerm is not the camper. but Linden Labs' system of ranking as you have stated.



I'm not angry, just opinionated. I pay because I choose to contribute for my enjoyment of the game.



I'm not begruding anyone about not paying. I believe that there should be a time period for people to be able to play without paying to get a feel for the game, but I do not believe it should be open ended, and, in light of the corellation of increased greifing with the opening of unverified accounts, believe that some form of player verification is needed.



This argument doesn't hold much weight, as these above referenced individuals can obviously afford a high-speed internet connection and a high-end computer system that is required to access the grid. If they have the resources to play the game, but cannot afford to purchase basic necessities of life, it makes one wonder about their priorities.

Granted, there are some who cannot, for one reason or another register with a credit card or paypal. I believe Paypal does allow one to deposit funds in their account by mailing a check or money order. You know the old saying, "Where there's a will, there's a way...

I started out with an unverified account last Jan. I didnt have any money rl to even get a premium account. In game though, through the ppl I met, they gave me money to buy things in-game. Eventually I learned how to build. People seen my talents and wonderd why I didnt have a shop or land. I started from the bottom up with a little bit of help from other residents and the game has been paying for itself ever since I started with a premium account 6 months ago.

A free account was the only reason I really started to play which I am thankful for. SL has been saving my ass time and time again.

Free accounts is what got me to play in the first place. Free accounts are bringing this game down to its knees along with me and every other paying/recieving member.

My 2 cents.... Keep open free registrations (I want to see this game keep growing as fast as it has been, not every new unverified is a attacker), but keep it more limited to not just owning land, but creating scripts and maybe a few other odds and ends.

This game might not be new anymore, but its forever changing with each day. There is ALWAYS going to be random attacks at any level. I am just as fustrated as anyone else is but at the end of the day I think " I LOVE SECONDLIFE"

Well another day another dollar.....not!

Lets look at several difficult issues for some open debate.

Camping chairs.....many do not like them but a substantial minority of avatars use them to generate in world cash. No harm in that at all. And in the world outside that is the core element of Goggle’s business, that is click pay advertising, in essence you only pay for your adverts when someone accesses your web page.

Here in Second Life camping chairs are the equivalent of click pay advertising. We all look at the map and see loads of green dots, and go have a look. The camping chair owner pays for that advertising via rent on his chairs

----------------

Accounts and Verification of Identity (VOI)

As a default model prevent people without VOI from creating scripts personally. However...bring a little discretion into the system and allow appeals based on some other form of VOI (apart from Credit Cards or Pay Pal) or a reasonable financial balance in $L on account which would be forfeit on account closure…say the $l equal of around $100 US real

In addition allow Estate Owners to enable script creation for unverified accounts while the avatar remains on their land. Prevent that script running on the mainland unless it is sold/transfered on to a VOI account. For non VOI retailers that would mean a VOI account would have to purchase/vet the script before resale, and therefore it would have to be full permission enabled on initial sale. If this was enabled all non VOI account retailers/creators would need to have a VOI agent. Not ideal but better than nothing and better than constant grid attacks for all of us.

Continue with the business model of running all scripts once created (unless grief scripts)

Just some thoughts

End the accounts, period. With no committment, the un-verified, freebie people open the doors for those with mischeif on their minds to attack and bring down a game others committed to financially.

Perhaps you're unaware of this, Paneia, but it was never ever a requirement that you had to pay for SL before trying it out. There were thousand upon thousands of free accounts before LL did away with the credit card requirement. Even way back when it used to cost all of $9.95 to join, there was still a seven day trial period before that charge kicked in.

The credit card thing was in place not so much for payment, although that was part of it, but more importantly, for identity and age verification. In the 2 or 3 years before they did away with it, you could count the amount griefers that ever appeared in SL on one hand. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was only one significant attack on the grid in all that time. Now such attacks happen with incredible frequency, lately almost every day.

I won't argue with you that open registration does serve to bring in more people, and that the previous ID requirement was a turn-off to some. However, as much as you yourself might be an exception to the rule, it's pretty hard to deny the fact that a great many of those who kept out before only stayed away because they knew they wouldn't be able to operate anonymously with malicious intent.

Open registration has now thrust those people upon us like a plague. There's got to be a better way.

I'm sorry you misunderstood what the credit card was for back when you first became aware of SL, and I'm glad you decided to join us now that that requirement has been lifted. It's just too bad that doing what it took to convince you to come also meant allowing in so many bad apples. I'm sure you can understand why people are bitter about that.

If only your misunderstanding of the credit card rule hadn't kept you from seeing how much more pleasant it was before all the badguys got here, I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune right now. Again, I'm glad you're enjoying SL, but I can promise you you would have enjoyed it more before.

Aren't we comparing apples to oranges here. There is a difference between an unverifiable account and a basic account. I think most people are complaining about unverified accounts where you don't have to provide credit card information or even a verified email account. LL has no way to verify that that account is not one of a hundred alts that a griefer may be creating to use to crash the grid and no way to punish the griefer and make sure that they are not turning around, creating another unverified account, signing right back on and starting over again.

When i joined we were required to provide a valid email address and credit card information. The credit card was not charged, I had a basic (free) account until I chose to buy land at which time I upgraded to premium. So I had time to check out the game and decide if it was worth $10. a month. I did a bit of camping to support a modest shopping habit (though i never modified my account to keep from logging out) unitl I had seen enough to convince me that this place is very much worth spending some real money on.

Thanks Chosen, you said it much better than I did

Quoted again for truth.

I don't care about if a person pays or not. That's thier buisness. But LL needs a way to filter persons and to have tracability.

Without verifing persons, LL allows underage persons on the Main Grid. The Teen Grid is set for those under 18, and the Main Grid for 18+. Currently the Teen Grid requires verification (not payment, just verification) to join. There is no such requirement for the Main Grid. Anyone is allowed into the Main Grid without any sort of verification process.

The only difference to me between a Basic and a Premium account is that you must be a Premium to own land. OTherwise it is more financally sound to buy L$ off the Lindex than to be paying for a weekly stipend. 500L$ per week for 10$ USD when the going rate is @ 260L$ to 1$ USD. Even saying half the Premium is used for land, a person is still ahead to buy thier own L$.

So no, I don't have anything against Basic accounts (those who do not pay a monthly fee). I am automatically suspicious of unverifieds (those who have no information on file). That LL choses to use "payment info" is nothing I can change. I am only concerned with tracability.

No, I do not automatically act against unverifieds. I believe in the benifit of the doubt. However, over the last few months (since 6-6-06 Ironic number there btw), All within SL have seen an increase in griefing, dropping only when the NoPush option was finally installed for landowners. The increased DoS attacks have not dropped, and will not drop until LL reinstates verification of accounts. By whatever means, payment info, or otherwise.

Unlimited, unverified accounts is an open floodgate to griefers and those who do DoS attacks.

~Jessy

Well said, Jessica

I verified my account purely for the $L250, but had I found SL on my own and not through a trusted friend I probably wouldn't have.

However in the month I've been playing it's become obvious that allowing unverifieds is a big mistake. Even if you believe currently that the levels of DoS attacks are acceptable, you are in for a shock in the very near future. As more unverifieds sign up, the number of attacks will grow *exponentially*. The harm this does to the economy will kill the game. There is absolutley no point in encouraging new users into a dead grid.

John Horner makes some good suggestions regarding changes to the scripting model, however I think DoS griefers will still find a way, it does nothing to stop everyday griefing, and that therefore the best solution is a return to full verification.

This is funny had to say something ..

Dude you think every1 here has badass.. sry "high-end" computers and internets? I've been playing SL for about 2 years now on my little 600$ Walmart special computer on dial-up half the time. Yes, it can be done.
People really need to get the fact that not every1 is gifted with a bunch of extra cash to blow on "virtual items" or really want to for that matter.
Yes, griefing has gotten worse since the open accounts came in but they weren't totally obsolete before. They were handled quietly since nothing was really as big as we see lately. And the whole full grid attacks that crash the whole thing aren't that old either, some idiot found the hole that let him do it and shared it with all the other little jerkoffs. Then SL started the penilty by law blah blah.
Anyways, my point is not all unverified new ppl or seemingly new ppl are the enemy. LL is the ones that need to fix their hole. And all the paying ppl that are angry at the other ppl that don't pay to play, you all just sound bitter.

I'm gonna answer several posts and to keep the clarity going, I'm gonna make a separate post for each.



You have not read what I said. Contributing by buying from vendors is not what I meant. Contributing as in funneling any money through to reach Lindens to pay for thier time on dealing with these grid attacks. It's the paying accounts, land holders, and people who buy Lindens who are paying for it. And also, you CANNOT buy when the grid is down. And some people use vendors, so that means when scripts are off, you can't buy from them either. So really, because of the plague of unverified griefers, you can't contribute anyways if things are always broken.

Your account could have still had a closed end trial period in which you cannot script until you have become verified. While I appreciate that you and 3 other's have gotten that much in Lindens, it's frankly chicken feed when you compare it to the rest of the verifieds who spend more than a million Lindens a month, or do that much in 'in-world' transactions, that are losing business. While I wished you were here, I would personally trade your 100,000L for keeping the grid open and free from daily attacks, and I'm sure many business owners who are losing thousands of L a day from this, would too.

You are comparing to RW, and saying compensate for it? Well, in the RW, no company has to suffer endless downtimes. If your electricity goes out, you don't pay for it, while here, you still have to pay tier and membership. If your phone goes out for 8 days a month, they compensate you for it (certain clauses for almost each state in the US allows for a percentage downtime in which the company cannot charge for services). The only way a RW business owner loses out, is if they are sick and have no employees to run their store.

You are basically telling owners to go screw themselves and put MORE money into bringing people in, because they couldn't get them in during downtime, in hopes to not only compensate for the downtime loss of sales, but ALSO paying the extra to advert, and spend time away from creating to wear a sandwich board.

Which proves my point Winter... the unverifieds can't work or create if the grid is down now can they? They can't script build when scripting is down, can they? And frankly, you are stating the problem as it is. Without feeding off people who ARE verified, they don't have the means. While I've helped out TONS of unverifieds that seem like nice people, I'm more often getting griefed from them than honest ones that come.

Granted, there is no 'incentive' so to speak, that therein is the problem. If they can't go someplace where unverifieds are welcome, there are plenty of greedy places who will take the chance of an attack to take your Lindens. However, everyday these attacks hit personal sims, those sims are beginning to go to verified on file. Mainland spots are slowly drying up because of the attacks and the comfort zone that a separate sim provides. Every day a few more go to this payment option. What are you gonna do when eventually they all get sick of it and EVERY main place (which I see happening over a bit of time) requires verification and there's nothing to do anyways?

Then again, wouldn't you WANT to get verified for the free Lindens? I mean honestly, if you didn't plan on buying them anyways, you'll want some in some form.

You know what, I sure as hell don't have 6 figures, I am in a single income military family. BUT if you are on foodstamps, draining government dollars, then you sure as hell shouldn't be here. If you can't make rent, you shouldn't be paying that 10 bucks a month (MINIMUM) to have internet access. And you sure as hell should be selling whatever computer you've got to make ends meet. If you can't make money from the real world, then you shouldn't have luxuries 'to dull the pain'. I've lived in a welfare family. We didn't get the A&F clothes, computers, etc. We bought necessities like food, RENT, and things you NEED.

So your unverified friends have given you stuff. Which either means A) they have a job, which when the grid is down, they can't make money, B) opened a business, which means when the grid is down, they can't make money, C) camp a lot, and when the grid is down, they can't make money or D) beg from people who have the money, who can't make it while the grid is down, or have to buy it.

If you think protecting a business from griefers is class-griefing in itself, I'm sorry that you feel that way. But the truth is, it's a helluva lot different from low income versus high income. It has to do with protection. Consider it this way, and not to start a whole political war, but this animates how MANY business owners feel...

What is the nationality of the majority of the large scale terrorists that are also killing their own people? Would I be upset if there was a bit of extra caution from them? Not at all. But if one showed up to my house, starving, hungry and scared, with thier child, would I turn them away? Hell no.

Some ruin it for all. Would I have a problem with you being unverified if other unverifieds weren't crashing the grid all the time? Not at all.

And before you say that's quite an intense comparison, some people in this game DEPEND on their income from it. They feed thier children with it, they pay their bills, etc. Sure it's a chance, but for some, a game like this creates opportunites away from the elitists of the real world. Hell, look at Anshe Chung, she made $100,000+ from this game, so I'm quite sure there are quite a few people who are making good money here.

JR, I think you are trying to stir the pot. LL didn't go unverified til the end of May. There is no way you could have had a freebie account in January. And since you didn't make a typo in it, I'm having a hard time even believing what you are saying. You contradict yourself...

I started out with an unverified account last Jan.
since I started with a premium account 6 months ago.
Free accounts is what got me to play in the first place.

Sorry but to me, all that you typed is negated because of the lying.

Well, I was kind of hoping this thread would turn into more of a "We are newbies and are here because of unverified" but ... oh well. I've been searching through the forums for about an hour and 99% of posts are "Return to the old ways" and each and every person gives, from what I can see, damn good reasons. Well, thats it. End of thread. I've been proven wrong.
Lock this bad boy.

Defintely sad though, I'm glad for some of the influx of new people. Just sucks a few people have to ruin it for others.

hi im new and yet unvarifed. tho thinking on not to get free linden or get into sims or locations that are to scared they will only let u in if u can have a credit card tho u can use someone else's ?....but to stop the agresstion i face when trying to explore sl and make friends deciding wether or not i like the game enough to join up completly. sl is from what ive seen an amazing place and is let down buy its jugemental attitude on other users. greefing will always accure and i can understand the feeling layed out here but its a very scary place to be if ur a unverified acount just looking round.and to be honist im a lil concerd about giveing out my personal credit details even if im not charged what if the data base is hacked from the stability of the game i wonder how safe it is. its a simple case or a few spoiling it for the rest, but how do these new acounts know how to do what they do i can just about make a box lol. i did wonder if theres another way to get verified that does not need a credit of an acount noe details like a phone call to linden labs witch i would gladly do. anyways im just rambeling dont mine the noobi lol xxx