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First Land is no more

Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
02-21-2007 12:05
From: April Firefly
This is the abuse people think should have been stoppable. You seem almost proud that you duped the system. This is why First Land is no more. I remember saying that if people abused the system, it would be taken away.

Thank you and all others like you who think you are doing what you deserve rather than what the program was intended for. If everyone who got a premium account, I paid for 3 and currently have 2, bought First Land, there would be none for the new user, which is what First Land is about.

I think before anyone complains about the system being taken away, they should look at what they may have done to contribute to their demise.


A clear ruling form LL never really came down. If they wanted people to not buy more then 1 first land plot it would have been clearly stated. They also have all the logs and could find out who was creating an alt to buy first land and banned them. But they didn't. Every time it was asked, the answer was always vague at best. The idea of first land may have been only for the first time player, but it was never really implemented in that fashion.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Kyricus Fredriksson
Registered User
Join date: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 37
02-21-2007 12:10
From: April Firefly
This is the abuse people think should have been stoppable. You seem almost proud that you duped the system. This is why First Land is no more. I remember saying that if people abused the system, it would be taken away.

Thank you and all others like you who think you are doing what you deserve rather than what the program was intended for. If everyone who got a premium account, I paid for 3 and currently have 2, bought First Land, there would be none for the new user, which is what First Land is about.

I think before anyone complains about the system being taken away, they should look at what they may have done to contribute to their demise.



I dont' see how you can consider that abuse April, I certainly don't. He paid for two premium accounts, therefore he's eligible for the benefits of two PAID premium accounts. It's first land per account, not per individual. In any other game, or endeavor, if you will, that you buy a second something of, it doesn't negate the benefits of the first. Now, alts under one account shouldn't get first land as they are not paying an additional fee. But if someone was willing to pony up an additional monthly fee, they should have been able to buy it also. I don't think this was the reason it was removed. It was the flipping from what I read.
April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
02-21-2007 12:27
Read the link in my signature. The Lindens official stand on First Land is for the First Land buyer. To help them understand what Land Owning is about. Once a person has bought land, they do not need to go through the process again to understand it. It is one of the reasons First Land was abolished. Did you read the Blog? It clearly mentions the abuse by ALTS! What is an Alt? A second or more account. The abuse was also in owning the land period. If you gook land that someone else who was new could have had, then you are depriving that person. How many times did people say they couldn't find First Land? How man of the times do you think that First Land disappeared it was because someone, who was more experienced, was able to grab it first. The idea of First Land was for newbies. Having a newbie compete against a more experienced Land Buyer was part of the problem. Especially when the Fake "First Land" Buyer had been a Land Owner for some period of time.

From: Kyricus Fredriksson
I dont' see how you can consider that abuse April, I certainly don't. He paid for two premium accounts, therefore he's eligible for the benefits of two PAID premium accounts. It's first land per account, not per individual. In any other game, or endeavor, if you will, that you buy a second something of, it doesn't negate the benefits of the first. Now, alts under one account shouldn't get first land as they are not paying an additional fee. But if someone was willing to pony up an additional monthly fee, they should have been able to buy it also. I don't think this was the reason it was removed. It was the flipping from what I read.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe
the truth is overrated :D

From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
02-21-2007 14:04
The link in your sig goes nowhere.
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From: Cristiano Midnight
This forum is weird.
Meg Box
Im a New-scence
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 158
I'm a Sucker with a capital S
02-21-2007 15:00
As a noobie who upgraded to Premium 'cuz of the cheap land hook... I sent the "concierge" (HA!!) the following complaint. Perhaps I don't understand the whole land buying thing in SL, I haven't wanted to really explore tiers, and all such because I wanted to keep it simple - just have fun in SL. Maybe someone more experienced can put my weary mind to ease by saying, "No, honey, it's ok that they took away First Land... it really won't be that bad". In the meantime, I'm pissed and feel the need to vent. Scroll and read, or not.



Ok, now what do I do.... since I joined, I have been searching, and searching AND SEARCHING for First Land, to no avail. Now I hear this new announcement.

Since I will now have to shell out big bucks for my lil' piece o' 512m land, (if I can find it) what happens when you reverse yourself, and you probably will. Will you refund all of my money less the 512L$ I would have originally paid for it as First Land??? Or will I be the sucker twice over for 1) waiting and waiting around for First Land, when I coulda bought regular much cheaper than today's prices and 2) be out the thousands of L$'s when you say "oh, sorry, we will re-institute First Land to those who are not land owners", which, of course I will be because of your new policy saying "no more sucka"

Tell me what I should do, since you have so limited my options.

I upgraded to Premium in order to get First Land and be a happy homeowner and not have to spend tons o L's on tiers and the other such nonsense (those details hurt my head -- if I wanted to be in debt every month I need not do it in a virtual reality - I have enough debt in RL).... I just want a lil home to call my own.

Since you now already have my annual membership dollars...where does that leave me. I need an answer now. Thanks -

Yours faithfully, the big ol' sucker sap...

Meg Box
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
02-21-2007 15:14
April, the abuse mentioned was when people did a 1-month premium, grabbed and resold a first land plot, then dumped premium. This isn't about people with multiple long-term premiums, it's about people with many short-term ones.
Meg Box
Im a New-scence
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 158
02-21-2007 15:31
From: Sindy Tsure
April, the abuse mentioned was when people did a 1-month premium, grabbed and resold a first land plot, then dumped premium. This isn't about people with multiple long-term premiums, it's about people with many short-term ones.



And I understand that LL should do something about that, but restrictions COULD be imposed to disallow that from happening.

And besides, now that the damage is done, they could take their membership list and say, OK, everyone who is a Premium Account holder from this point back in time has the option to buy by this date. After that, all bets are off. But then of course, they would have to make the land available. If they set the point at say, now with no advance warning, then there would be no chance for folks who are not already Premium account holders to join.

Other smarter folks suggested this here and on the blog and if LL were as smart, would perhaps listen. Sooner or later someone else will develop a like SL environment and we can let our feet do the walkin'. (and if someone already has, let me know - I'll let my boots do the talkin')
Peggy Paperdoll
A Brat
Join date: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 4,383
02-21-2007 16:18
From: April Firefly
I don't think you understand, it's not the one account that's the problem, it's the person with many accounts buying First Land the minute it becomes available and because they are more experienced than the new user, they are able to find the best land. Anyone can get a new credit card and be fake new user and there's no way for LL to track them.


April..........I DO understand. Someone said it could not be done without significant work that would make it unprofitable to even attempt. I said that is total BS. And I stand behind my statements. LL damn sure knows when my quarterly payment is due and how much it is. They damned sure know if and for how much I owe for any tier I might incur. They know if I have enough L$ in my account when I click on an item while shopping to check the price and the price is more than my L$ balance. And when that box pops up they know how to charge me if I should happen to want to buy some more L$. They know that this avatar is tied to such and such a credit card (my choice of payment method......it could be any other method for others). I don't see much difference in tracking multiple first land purchases to the same payment method...........they sure don't have much of a problem tracking me.

As I said there should be a way to allow a legitmate purchase.....but to just process the money and care nothing at all is pure and simple laziness...............or worse. Don't tel me I don't understand................I do understand. They just don't want to make the effort. It's too much trouble. We are the only gang on the net doing this and take it or leave it. And only a fool would think they will stay the only kid on the block for long. They not be fools.......but they are foolish.

Before I get my panties all wadded up again I better quit this post. :)
DoteDote Edison
Thinks Too Much
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 790
02-21-2007 16:30
My suggestion to anyone who upgraded to premium before the announcement, via credit card, and feels cheated out of First Land:

Call your credit card company and dispute the Linden Lab charge due to alleged fraud. Claim that Linden Lab advertised one thing, sold you another and that you wish to revoke the charge.

You'll need to cancel your SL account entirely and open a new basic account with SL (if you choose to stay). You can try to downgrade to basic, but LL is likely to boot you anyway for the charge-back.)

In cancelling your account, you'll lose all the items in your inventory that our non-transfer. If you intend to remain in SL under a new basic account, you should probably create the new account first and transfer everything you can before disputing the CC charge. Since LL seems to be unable to correlate information between multiple accounts operated by one individual, you should be able to open a new basic account with a new CC and e back to where you were before upgrading to premium and having your first land taken away.
tristan Eliot
Say What?!
Join date: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
02-21-2007 21:17
Since LL apparently has no regard for its customers and will probably shrug off all the complaints, we as consumers do have the power to send a clear message with our wallets. Stop giving them money plain and simple. Do not spend any money at all and see if they finally get the picture. Do not pay outrageous amounts for land anymore either. Once they see their profits drop then perhaps they will start to listen.
Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
02-22-2007 01:52
April- hogwash. A long term resident making use of the offer on the table from the service provider, whatever the BS blurb was about, is nothing remotely like some bottom-feeder making one-month alt premiums to flip first land. Not even the same page. If I could go back in time, I'd have joined SL two years earlier and got my cushy 4096 and stipend for life no more money down.

First land rights came with premium accounts, part of what you paid for. You paid $10-$72 premium account, you got the right to buy a single 512sqm plot for 512L. You got two premium accounts, then you were ok to get two. Linden Lab allowed this quite deliberately for premium accounts they *knew* were alt accounts- same payment information, and registered as an additional account to the old maximum of two. At no time did anyone dupe the system. I remember a time when first land sims were full of fresh yellow rectangles for *days* at a time. Nobody was buying the damn stuff, probably the only people that were, were second premium account alts.

Maybe you should moan that everyone who got the last of the first land flipped it for more "profit" than Cocoanut ever saw from buying two lots. There was never any shortage of land for the landless a year ago even.
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
02-22-2007 04:17
I'm "moaning" about both. The First Land people who weren't getting their "First Land" and the flippers. First Land is for your First Time, no matter. If I buy 10 accounts, are you saying it entitles me to 10 First Land? Come on people, be reasonable. This was one of my biggest pet peeves. I can't understand how you can say, a newbie should compete with a seasoned player for First Land. If there is a shortage of something, like there was of First Land, did you really think it isn't better for someone new to have access to it, rather than soneone who has already had the advantage? I am looking for the post I had linked to in my signature. But the gist of it was the Lindens set up the Program for First time buyers period, not alts, no matter what the intention was. If you game a program in a way it was not intended, you can't be upset when the program is removed. Supporting people who helped bring about this situation, while complaining about it at the same time seems counter productive.

From: Ace Albion
April- hogwash. A long term resident making use of the offer on the table from the service provider, whatever the BS blurb was about, is nothing remotely like some bottom-feeder making one-month alt premiums to flip first land. Not even the same page. If I could go back in time, I'd have joined SL two years earlier and got my cushy 4096 and stipend for life no more money down.

First land rights came with premium accounts, part of what you paid for. You paid $10-$72 premium account, you got the right to buy a single 512sqm plot for 512L. You got two premium accounts, then you were ok to get two. Linden Lab allowed this quite deliberately for premium accounts they *knew* were alt accounts- same payment information, and registered as an additional account to the old maximum of two. At no time did anyone dupe the system. I remember a time when first land sims were full of fresh yellow rectangles for *days* at a time. Nobody was buying the damn stuff, probably the only people that were, were second premium account alts.

Maybe you should moan that everyone who got the last of the first land flipped it for more "profit" than Cocoanut ever saw from buying two lots. There was never any shortage of land for the landless a year ago even.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe
the truth is overrated :D

From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
02-22-2007 11:29
Quoted from a poster on the Blog, post #478:

-----

Not that anyone will read this at this point in time… but I found this in LL’s “Official Guide” to SL that they just published. From chapter 6 on inventory control, it encourages you to open an alt account and make it a premium one. “As explained in Chapter 2, this gives you two shots at buying First Land at the rock-bottom price of one Linden Dollar per square meter.”

It then goes on to say “… or you can sell one parcel and keep the other–as noted in Chapter 2, practically all First Land can be sold immediately at a healthy profit.”

So basically, in their official book, Linden Labs encouraged the gaming of the First Land program and the flipping of it to land barons.
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Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
02-22-2007 11:36
From: Cocoanut Koala
Quoted from a poster on the Blog, post #478:

-----

Not that anyone will read this at this point in time… but I found this in LL’s “Official Guide” to SL that they just published. From chapter 6 on inventory control, it encourages you to open an alt account and make it a premium one. “As explained in Chapter 2, this gives you two shots at buying First Land at the rock-bottom price of one Linden Dollar per square meter.”

It then goes on to say “… or you can sell one parcel and keep the other–as noted in Chapter 2, practically all First Land can be sold immediately at a healthy profit.”

So basically, in their official book, Linden Labs encouraged the gaming of the First Land program and the flipping of it to land barons.


If they encourage it explicitly, it's not really gaming it...
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Rockwell Ginsberg
Boss
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 560
02-22-2007 11:40
Wait a minute... there's no more first land???
Icarus DuCasse
Registered User
Join date: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 27
02-23-2007 05:32
Actually, a couple of weeks back I sent a message in the help channel inworld asking if I missed my change of buying first land. I signed up the 28th january and for a hour after my first log in I received a number of popups to teleport to first land with the option of buying it. Ignorantly I passed these offers thinking I better could spend some more time on sl and then decide where to buy first land.
I didn't receive any more popups after this first hour. None. So I started pondering, did I loose my opportunity to buy fl? The answer of a lindenlab employee (I don't recall exactly) :"You didn't loose your opportunity!"

I guess I did ...
Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
02-23-2007 06:18
As I explained, April, when I did it, it looked like they couldn't even *give* First Land away, those sims stayed full of yellow rectangles for ages, and there were always 1st land plots almost permanently lying around the grid in twos and threes over two pages worth of Find Land For Sale searches, just nobody wanted the sucky green landlocked 16x32s. I'm sure it was the same when Cocoanut bought land, and as she just highlighted, it's something that's been expected, recommended and endorsed by Linden Lab themselves to incentivise people to buy two premium accounts.

This is a long, long way from the recent times where first land all sold out by the time someone posted on the forum that there was some on sale. Some perspective is called for, that's all.

I have another premium alt I made recently that sits doing nothing much except getting the 300L and contributing 512 tier. Never got any 1st land, gets almost half the stipend of my main. *shrugs*.
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
02-23-2007 08:53
If it makes you feel comfortable to have taken something away from someone else, then so be it.

I had the opportunity to get 2 additional First Land plots, but then I thought of others who might be looking and opted not to do it. I am glad I didn't regardless of the arguments put forth here. I like to think my sacrifice enabled someone else to enjoy land owning and made it possible for LL to keep the program a little longer.

If some think I was being foolish or naive, for not gaming a program when I had the chance, I can live with it. I just can't fault LL for shutting the program down. I can't see why someone who took the advantage and used it can now complain. But then some people prefer to curse the darkness rather than light a candle.


From: Cocoanut Koala
Quoted from a poster on the Blog, post #478:

-----

Not that anyone will read this at this point in time… but I found this in LL’s “Official Guide” to SL that they just published. From chapter 6 on inventory control, it encourages you to open an alt account and make it a premium one. “As explained in Chapter 2, this gives you two shots at buying First Land at the rock-bottom price of one Linden Dollar per square meter.”

It then goes on to say “… or you can sell one parcel and keep the other–as noted in Chapter 2, practically all First Land can be sold immediately at a healthy profit.”

So basically, in their official book, Linden Labs encouraged the gaming of the First Land program and the flipping of it to land barons.
_____________________
From: Billybob Goodliffe
the truth is overrated :D

From: Argent Stonecutter
The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better?
Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
02-23-2007 09:26
April, do you think people should send their stipend back for all but their first premium account, too?
bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
02-26-2007 08:44
Sorry, not been around for a few days and haven't time to backread eight pages .. but ... do I read right here, pasted from blog ..
From: someone
You may ask what, without First Land, is the value of a Premium account? Well consider that the L$1200 stipend per month (around USD$4.50) plus 512m free tier per month (around USD$5.00) means that the monthly premium account essentially pays for itself.


Does Premium now pay L$1200 stipend per month???
Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
02-26-2007 08:46
From: bilbo99 Emu
Sorry, not been around for a few days and haven't time to backread eight pages .. but ... do I read right here, pasted from blog ..


Does Premium now pay L$1200 stipend per month???


Yes, approximately.

Quick bit of maths, it's actually L$1300 / month.
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Peekay Semyorka
Registered User
Join date: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 337
02-26-2007 08:48
They used to pay more...

-peekay
Peekay Semyorka
Registered User
Join date: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 337
02-26-2007 08:49
From: bilbo99 Emu
Does Premium now pay L$1200 stipend per month???


Yes (well $L300/wk); they used to pay more, though.

-peekay
bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
02-26-2007 08:55
From: Stephen Zenith
Yes, approximately.

Quick bit of maths, it's actually L$1300 / month.


ah! selective eyesight on my part ... month LOL

Thanks Stephen & Peekay.
Abrah Sullivan
The Instigator
Join date: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 51
03-04-2007 13:38
From: Lhorentso Nurmi
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/02/20/first-land-program-to-end/

I wonder if this will inpact land prices at all.



Well since it's obvious that LL is more concerned about free accounts, and since free accounts can't own land, why would LL give a rat's ass about land? It's no wonder the game runs like shit, it lags, packet loss, and often time has me running to 0kbps.

So, that said, why does LL actually care if it screws the very people who helped make it happen?

They dont listen to their customer base, they dont listen to our complaints, they dont help in breaking up monopolies and while I understand they encourage business and understand that some people make their living/or part of it in SL, if they continue to let their cusomters be abused or manipulated thru land barons etc, they'll soon find that they have no customers to be abused. Good job Linden, way to shoot your own foot. And now the idiots are working on VOICE service, how about getting the lag down and making it playable??? LMAO. -.-
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