Ready for a fight?

CLOTHING: I much prefer no copy/transfer clothing. I blog a lot of outfits and though I have no desire to sell anything I blog once I am done with it, I do like the option of moving things along that I know I won't be wearing again. Instead, every few months I delete many, many items that some of my friends or new residents might be able to enjoy.

HAIR: I prefer copy/no transfer as I sometimes need to resize and having a safety original is much needed.

HOMES: Must be copy/no transfer for me. Given how easy it is to unlink, delete part of, and generally arse up a home makes it a necessity. It's quite easy to just re-rez and not worry about it.

with selling houses, both of these are concerns of mine. they both end up with me losing out on occasion.

but i go with the lesser of two evils. copy (especially with a mod house) is better for the customer, because if they lose it, delete it or screw it up, there's always a fresh backup wtihout having to worry. that carries more weight for me, and makes it a better product for the person buying it, so that's why i go with mod/copy.



yes, that would be ideal. assuming LL can implement this perfectly, without the chance that one of those copies could be left behind (don't forget it can be modified, unlinked, left rezzed inworld, or linked to something else). but i wouldn't bet L$2 on that happening.

If you're spending that much you should check the permissions first!

Just be a good little consumer and keep buying...

Just to put in my two cents as a customer, and I spend regularly at a HUGE variety of locations. But want to know what I look for?

Mod, No Copy, Trans.


I would like to be able to modify my outfit, shorten the pants, tint the top, whatever. And possibly pass it on to someone else when I think its been well worn. I dont bother to make outfits, so I dont need copy perms.

It seems the No Trans permissions are to prevent people from resale. And thats fine, I see that point clearly. All clothing designers should make their No Refund policy clear and stick to it to avoid any scams.

But its very nice to be able to give it to a friend who could use it if you cant. When I have done that in the past, I often go back and buy it again for myself.

If the concern is also losing customers over selling their clothes with trans permission, I think they are mistaken. SL is growing as much as the quality in clothing design. And we women (and some men too!).... love to spend

Exactly. I always ask for copy/mod/no trans and I've never been turned down on buildings yet. Given my disability, all too often I click the wrong thing or press the wrong key (major hand jitters). In fact, Once I was selecting part of a house to put scripts in the walls and accidentally deleted one good section. No problem... rez a new house, grab what I need and put it back.

Although I understand someone not wanting a landlord/lady to abuse the perms and set up row housing -- mind, who rents from project housing imitators? Sadly, right next to my sim, Necros, there's a swath of land with the same houses for rent, barely any distance between them so no privacy. Looks like hell.

And that's my morning ramble.

I have been at several shops where when you buy something it asks what perms you want. IM me in world and I'll give you the landmarks of the shops so you can check it out!

Cheers.

I can understand that you have a personal preference for items you purchase, but to be fair I don't believe it's anyone's right to force a creator of any object to sell his or her items in a way that goes against their own wishes. It's their item. Many merchants are willing to work with customers on permissions if asked. I've done it on many occasions.

As for pricing, the cost of an item has to do with the time and energy that went into creating the item, not the permissions.

True, you purchased the item and can do as you wish with it. However, the original creator retains the right to do what they wish such as not having their items resold.

It's an issue that I'm sure many content creators have put a lot of thought into and have made the decision that best suits their business model.

And the majority of people I've spoken to prefer the copy/no trans perms. With the options we're given for selling content in SL, it's difficult to keep everyone happy.

[/QUOTE]

Best,
~Ari

why not put both versions in the vendors?

Many vendors offer a "GIFT" option where you can by NoTrans items for others. You pay through that option, then you type the name of the person in chat and the system sends to that person. If no such person exists (ie you made a typo) then the transaction fails and you are refunded your L$.

The only one I can name offhand is the one I use. From Moopf. However, there are others out there, I just like his best for the style, form, function and documents written so I can understand the techese =^.^=

~Jessy

as a merchand AND consumer have bought way to many non copy transfer items that I have lost and I too refuse to do something. Buy items which are no copy and transfer only. Its a personal preferance and a decision arrived at after far to many people were telling me of inventory loss so in order to save my sanity I changed and bought a very expensive gift card system among other things for people who wanted to buy gifts. There will always be two schools of thought but after experiencing 50K of inventory loss in one single day I now refuse to buy stuff you demand to buy. There is NO right answer for this and if the asset server was stable I would be selling stuff in different ways but its not and invariably its only the no copy /transfer items I loose not the other stuff. So if you can demand that I can demand the other way round to.. sorry but there are many people who want things the other way and I for one had a very hard keeping up with things when the asset server was down and many people sell no copy transfer items with the intend behind them being IF YOU LOOSE IT YOU REPLACE IT BY REPURCHASING IT. Read that on this forum no thanks. That plus the transactions problems that happen no thanks way to much of a headache since on a daily basis I am refunding money for multiple purchases of items from my place. If items were transfer only I would not be able to do this they would be expected to go sell the second copy. Im happy this way and my customers are ecstatic when they see the money they over spent go back into their bank account without even asking

p.s. if you find this post agressive and lacking any real punctuation its because of your subject line Ready for a fight? if you can have what you want all the time so can I I want all merchantes Nay I DEMAND all merchants switch to modify/copy NO transfer or at least copy NO transfer so I never loose another inventory item again!

Best,
~Ari[/QUOTE]

Yes I have done this on occassion people have asked me all kinds of stuff and I do it. If i change permissions on an item though they get a huge speal on asset server issues and the fact that I probably wont remember that I changed theirs to no transfer so they wont be getting a replacement if it goes poof.

I just dont want to put myself in a situation where I am continuously dealing with complaints of lost inventory and a broken asset server invariably new players blame the merchant and I hate getting yelled at kinda ruins my day and makes me log out.

This means there is a networked server behind the system myself I stay away from networked servers for many reasons

1) they cause lag and if i set up in a mall they dont want them
2) if the asset server fails I get the same headaches I am trying to avoid people saying they spend money there being no transaction record and them demanding their money back (which I never got) or an item last weekend I enough trouble with stale transactions from one networked system I had it was ugly and I had a guy yell at me and I hated it and i had 2 people not get items from prim boxes in each case the money never made it anywhere and 3 people make purchases for which they got no item. I was able to resolve some of the issues but the guy with the networked server the one any only server on my land well I'm about to remove it the stuff i sell it because I think its neat but its simply not worth the hassle of dealing with the headaches of using networked systems

I sell clothes from prim boxes its easier it fouls up very infrequently even when the asset server is acting up because its not scripted so for me and those who get their stuff most of the time its something I like and I dont have the room to set up both options plus half the people purchasing never read anyhow so meh.. for the 1 person who is going to walk away because my items are no transfer I have 15 or so happy people. Plus anyone who sends me a chat gets their wishes satisfied for "hey I like this but can I have it in red and me making an items special for them" to "hey can you personally deliver this to my girlfriend" to "hey can i have these transfer instead of copy"

So often its simply a matter of asking I know many people dont like to ask but in all fairness its impossible to please 100% of people 100% of the time this I learned long ago so I'm no longer making myself crazy trying.

If we are trying to mimic the economy of real life, then we should continue in that fashion (no pun intended).

Resell: Do we resell clothing in RL? Yes we do--garage sales, vintage shops, etc. How do we get around lawsuits here? What stops me from buying a bunch of clothes from K-mart, and reselling them in NYC on the streets with fake Gucci tags on them? There is no stopping this...it happens.

Copy: obviously we can't shift-drag a shirt in RL--so I can understand making an item no-copy. Personally, I've heard too many people complain that my objects were no-copy and no-modify...so I changed all my stuff to copy/mod.

Transfer: If I want to give an item to someone else (a no-copy, no-mod), that's my choice. The question is, should the new owner be able to re-sell it? Copy it?

There really are no answer in the above text...I'm merely thinking aloud. I hope I've put a few ideas in your heads.

this would be fine but I have never gone to a store in real world and walked up to the cashier and paid for something by taking the same amount of money out of my wallet more then once and handing it to her more then once

Real world doesn't apply here because we vend differently and make things differently. A content creator is both the designer, factory and salesman and everything basically "sells itself". IN real world when a house breaks you can fix it and sell it and ad on to it among other things. Clothing when it wears out can be cut into rags if your that sort of type who doesn't use paper towels like me. Bed sheets can be doubled and sewn together to make duvet covers or cut up to make other items. None of this is possible in SL there are a million and one things that we can't do with items here that we can do in real world so trying to apply the real world measuring stick to items doesn't really work. The closets I can come is modify/copy no transfer because buying something only to have it go poof without someone actually stealling it doesn't sit right with me.

Heh. Just my opinion of course...but I'm sure you're not really the devil. (That comment was more about my experience with no transfer than the practices of others.)

It is interesting that most shoes seem to be NC/T because hair seemed to be that way all the time too, but that's definitely no longer the case.

The good thing about that is you can tweak your hair without destroying the original...and avoid looking quite so cloned if that hair happens to be popular. OTOH, I remember buying some NC/T boots as a newbie and completely demolishing them while adjusting them to fit. The creator never responded when I asked for an exchange and I was miserable for like...ten minutes afterwards. It took that long for me to realise how little L$200 was worth. Bloody newbies eh?

I always make buildings copy/mod/no transfer so they can be customized but not resold as customized. I always make clothing and jewelery no copy/modify/transfer so they can be given as gifts, but not for free. Hair is a good item to make copy/mod/no transfer to allow for multiple colors and back-ups but not be resold. Cars and vehicles are the same. Back-ups are absolutely necessary. Different permissions for different items, according to how they are used. It does come down to copy or transfer. You can have one or the other, but almost never both.

I don't have many items that I sell, but I do have a couple of things on the Exchange, and I do sell photo services.

For my signs and most physical objects, I sell them as mod/copy, no trans. In Rl, if you wanted an "Open" sign over each door, you would have to buy two. However, in SL, I will let you buy one, and then copy it to have another one for the second door. The trade-off is that you can't give it away.

For my texture packs ... you get mod/copy/trans ... I don't care what you do with it after you buy it. Sure, you may rebundle it and sell it again. But, you may want to include the textures in objects that you build and sell.

When you buy a photo package from me, your photos are delivered with full perms, as is the portfolio. People want to share their photos. So give a copy to all your friends. In RL, no ... it's a copyright violation to copy my photos .. but in SL ... sure, go ahead. I've been paid for my services, which was providing a studio, taking the photos, doing the Photoshop work, paying the UL fees, and building your portfolio.


Now ... as for clothes ... I **MUCH** prefer to buy clothes with copy perms. Ditto for hair. Everything you buy needs to be tweaked a little to make it fit right. I absolutely *HATE* to see an avatar walking around with their hair and clothes not adjusted to fit properly. It's a major turn-off. But, before I tweak, I want to be able to make a backup copy in case I screw something up. Plus, I like to be able to make a folder for a complete outfit, including my clothes ... hair ... AO ... MultiGadget ... shoes ... and accessories. It makes for quick outfit changes. To do that, I must have copy perms.

So that means I can't give away something after I get tired of it. Ya know what? I can just delete it if I really don't want it.

As for replacing items that you lost if you didn't have copy perms ... guess what ... just like RL ... you have to go buy another one. My kid scratched up one of his Disney DVDs. Guess what ... I had to go buy another one. Certainly you don't expect Disney to say, "Oh, he scratched it? Here, we'll send you another one. Oh, he scratched all his discs? Sure ... let's send you another copy of everything in your collection."

Having said that ... if you ever see something of mine for sale, and you don't like the perms ... send me an IM and tell me what you want. I'll be glad to change it and sell it to you in the configuration you want. And I won't charge you more for it. (Unless you require mod/copy/trans .... in which case you are going to pay for a "distribution license"


Lita

Lolita really IS a Pro.

Excellent advice, well said.

I don't have 10 different pairs of the EXACT same pants at home in RL; why should I in my SL inventory? It takes, what, 10 seconds or less to find something in my inventory (yeah I'm ruthless about organizing). Why lug around a bajillion objects in my inventory just because I don't feel like sorting through stuff?

I give away RL clothes that I haven't worn in a while; why shouldn't I be able to do it in SL?

At any rate, I sell NC/T because a lot of my customers have requested it. They like to give outfits as gifts. No one has ever approached me and asked for C/NT stuff, but I'd give it if they wanted to I guess. In the 6 months I've been in business, I've had two people IM me and say "I lost X, can I get a new piece?" and it's not an issue.

Of course it's the eternal debate. Is there an alternative?

It is possable to jiggle some non mod items. And after its done they dont register as non mod or non copiable! So I suspect non mod is there to make it harder to change the non transfer and copiable tags on items! This would devalue the copy right and additional sales of developers items.
However I have also seen items listed for sale at 5000Ls that download items from vending machines for free (theft) or copy non copiable items!

Now my investigation of reports in sl indicated that abuse reports seem to be automatically answered as dealt with after 2 dys in a form letter. Which made me question that they had read some of the reports listed at all! I would expect a reply due to the nature of what i put in some solely based on the Report title claim made!

ie Torley Linden mugged me for $72 US for a yrly premier account without delivering the full agreed account. (NB hes some sort of product development officer and most likely responsible for SL service development etc) Now surely you would expect some sort of direct response after that claim!

Now SL claims to proivide premier service for 1 yr after paying $72 US for a new premium account. And yet it took support 1 mth and 5 dys to activate it despit me making frequent support tickets lodged on the other account I previously had plus through the guest account lodgement which isnt designed for that sort of request. I finally got a reply on my other acount to lodge through the guest account useing live chat! (Pity they didnt show more innitiative of service provision and pass it on to accounts to fix as a priority!) Furthermore live chat didnt exist dureing all that time and has only just been re-added to the support page! But still doesnt get a response when you send the text message after it loads!
The appology that came with the news my account was now activated didnt mention reimbersment for the lost 1mth and 5 days off the 1 yr i paid up front, (only to get less than premier or even normal account access dureing that whole mth and 5 days!)

Ive lodged numerious support tickets on the support page and in game bugs reports plus abuse reports against torley linden just to get their attention! Finally I get a reply today that as they havnt heard from me lately they advise i close down the ticket unless i still have difficulties!!!!
Hello I have 3 tickets still showing lodged that they havnt deleted yet! But they will delete these like all the rest!

Now on top of that they have taken out another amout arround $9.90, and yet i dont have a premier mthly accout any more as it was listed as non premier before the yrly was activaed!

So dont expect SL to do anything about protecting the ownership rights of in game creators interlectual property, if they cant fix basic account setup and charges without under servicing but grossly over charging residents like me!

From what I hear they still have multiple ppl in legal suites against SL on interlectual property rights they claim to give in their blogs and media releases in documentries but are adamant to fight in court!

The only way to respond to SL is to lodge your grievences in US consumer affairs on the net so it can be seen by them in next years Times article on the worst Internet site for service. And they couldnt work out how they got listed in Time this year!!!!!
And they are bound to register higher up the list due to SLs downward spiraling service despite the continious so called additional features SL adds on top of the grossly unstable platform SL presently is! Yep the more complex SL gets the more problems we are liable to encounter. Just ask the old timmers that have seen SL slowly falling appart the more its developed, without stabilising it 1st!

I can understand why someone would want something no transfer but somethings don't work well as no mod/no transfer/no copy.
If I can't copy I can't make a back up in my virtual dresser or file cabinets.
If I can't mod I can't tweak item to make it uniquely mine or even resize or reattach if it has problem.
If its texture with no transfer and its not mine I can't use it with the viewer during building.
I seldomly buy items unless there something really special about it. Very seldomly do I sell things but usually its no transfer or full permissions and I would be pissed as heck if someone was making lot of money off items I created when they did nothing other then resell them when I am lucky if I can get few Lindens together.
Those who don't get why they can't sell other people's belongings in my opinion are people who don't make their own items and just don't get it.
Just imagine spending lot of energy and creativity, spending months and effort acquiring a skill only to lose it to someone else who got the item and resold it who didn't even make it.
When you buy items you're paying the creator for their effort to use item with limited rights to item, if you want full rights you need to ask the creator for that and pay them for it but that means in long run the creator may lose funds for giving you full permissions which isn't fair to them.
I give full rights only to people I know well and trust. I have pretty much given up trying to do anything for profit but I may retry but its such hassle for me personally to do so I am uncertain.

As a Veteran Resident i can't remember the last time i agreed to buy anything that was no modify. I never do because i believe we should be able to customize our purchases. The last time i bought something like that, i deleted it out of frustration. IMO I prefer the only lack of permission to be No Transfer. I can handle No Copy though, i just have to be extra careful where i rez it or i may lose it to a glitch since it's my only one. There is a weird glitch where you attempt to rez something, and it fails but gets removed from your inventory. You never see it again. With No Transfer i can do anything i want to it except give it to someone else.

Modify permission is self-understood when it comes to prim clothes and attachments. And modify rights require copy permission... wouldn't want my customers to try and work on their only copy. I strongly recommend making backup copies before modifying a wearable item. Since copy & mod are needed, transfer is a no-can-do. Sorry.

Besides, despite the SL logo, it's called Second Life and not Second Hand

Note that I'm not a content seller (nor am I much of a buyer either )....

I think organizing folks to pressure content sellers to change their permissions is an effort misplaced.

More productive would be to pressure Linden to 'fix' the permissions system - then both buyers and sellers win. Currently, content creators are simply making due with the limited choices they have, IMHO

When you buy clothes from a store, nobody tells you you can't draw on them, or sew/cut them to a different size or shape. When content creators in Sl disable mod rights it prevents me from wanting to purchase anything they sell. If you buy a shirt in SL for example. If the sleeves/Collar/bottom are not set to your expectations, you have a few choices, badger the merchant into fixing it (not likely to happen), don't buy it, or take a more underhanded approach (not recommended).