Gender, identity and alts, oh my!

Tried but couldn't follow the squiggly path of the OP's posts, for all my might, and gave up.

World perspectives.

I'm on
<----- This end.
And he's on
That end ---->

I'm gathering you're closer to this end than that. In which case, just about anything he says, even his 'hello' is going to read like abrasive trolling to you.


I've had better days in RL:



But in SL I'm always female. Just can't relate well enough to men to portray on or feel comfortable trying.

now there's something you don't see every day... Jig chastising someone else for writing too much...

Check back on what I write and tell me where I have ever typed a full page.

Melita, I'm sorry about that - you'll probably want to avoid my posts in the future (or even mute me) because I'm afraid I'm desperately crap at brevity. Sorry, mate. I'd be lying if I said that was likely to change. Also, my writing style tends to be - well, like this. It's not everyone's cup of tea.



:ighs::

Mickey, I have a much better understanding of where you're coming from now, so I guess that's a good thing. Ah, irony: Chris appalls me by (what I perceive to be) displaying contempt for a whole group of people, and I lash out at him. I appall you for (as you perceive) displaying contempt for a whole group of people, and you lash out at me. The fact that you're so indignant about what you're seeing as bigotry means I haven't the heart to feel pissed off with you, but, man, this is wearying.

Okay, I have a challenge for you: show me where I said ANYTHING AT ALL about "a category of people". Please. Find it, and show me, and I shall apologise unreservedly.

That's what's got you so mad, isn't it? I see that now: you think that I talked shit to Chris because of where he's from. Because that seems to be what you're accusing me of, right? I didn't get that at first, but then I checked the 'net this morning before I went to work, and saw what you'd said about "a category of people needing fixed" in the other thread. And I had a baffled moment of "...the who with the what now?" and reread it a few times, and then realised (I think) what you meant.

So let's clear this up: Chris's 2-line post pushed my buttons with its classism, its parochial nature and the nasty subtext of racism in regard to the Haitians, but I was going to engage. And then I noticed that he self identifies thus:



He.

Self-identifies.

Thus.

Clearly, the 'redneck' label is a hair-trigger for you - I get that. People can be shits when it comes to name-calling and stereotypes. But no, Mickey, you're wrong: I wouldn't call you or your nearest and dearest "rednecks". Or Chris, or his neighbours, if I randomly met them in RL. Or anyone else.

So the person you should be mad at here? The one who's thrown the word "redneck" into the equation, with all that it implies? That's Chris, Mickey. Chris is the one making posts that come across as bigoted, and describing himself as a "loud, arrogant redneck".

Let's take a trip to Dictionary.com, shall we?



I don't know whether or not you're hearing any of this, but I'm going to keep trying, because I'm pretty sure your heart is in the right place: my mean, Severus Snape-like post to Chris was as a direct result of the ignorance, arrogance and bigotry I perceived in Chris's post, and his choice of the term "redneck" as a self-descriptor.

It was ABOUT HIM. Not about you. Not about your neighbours. Not about HIS neighbours. Not about anyone other than Chris.

I think perhaps that the reason you've been reading it otherwise is because you've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder about people using the term "redneck" to hurt your town/friends/self - and I can grok that.

But that? Isn't what happened here.



Well, you know, you pretty much already have done, in the other thread, if we're talking unjustified negative qualities pulled from the air. And here, for that matter, to some extent. But go for it, if you like, and we'll see, shall we? I'd be fascinated to know what you come up with. You do seem to have quite an array of ideas about me.

The negative qualities I ascribed to Chris weren't pulled from the air - they were based firmly upon the impression he gave WITH HIS POST.

HIS POST made him look like he lacked compassion, wit and education. His words made him look like that, and the fact that his tagline boasts about being a "Loud Arrogant Redneck" and "proud to be a bad seed" confirmed the unfortunate impression of parochialism, ignorance and racism he had made IN HIS POST.

You're insisting that I misjudged Chris. He may have lovely qualities, but IN HIS POST he came across as ignorant and bigoted. And as far as I'm concerned? Being ignorant and racist? That's being broken, yes, and in need of fixing. YMMV, but there we are.

So I'll ask you again: you've repeatedly insisted in this thread and the other that I've dismissed "a whole category of people" as broken and in need of fixing. That I've insulted your friends and neighbours and you with my baseless assumptions and prejudice. And I believe that you're quite sincere in thinking that happened, and that you mean well by setting yourself up as their defender.

I'd like you to show me where I did that, please.

I am not really a racoon in real life, though I am currently. A bipedal one, though this is new. In the past I've spent a lot of time as a quad racoon, looking like the real thing, I mean.

I've been male, female, robots, a single glowing eyeball, ball of lava, a grandfather clock, sex pose balls (for a few moments as a joke), sheep, dragons, dinos, etc. I do not have a 'normal' me. A default.

I'm not comfortable talking around Chris. If he wanted to address you, he would.

You stated that you would not respond to him, because of his tag line, indicating a troll. So I assume that you will not respond to people in general, who are Loud, Arrogant, or Redneck....or proud...or bad apples. Is this correct? I am responding because of those categories.....not Chris. Do you have a problem with those type of people?

The definition that you pulled for redneck.....does not describe the type of person that I spend time with, who call themselves a redneck.

They call me a damn yankee - and we refer to each other with these labels as terms of endearment. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe it sends a bad message to others.

I think it's fine to be curious about people and what makes them tick....but the picking of brains and souls works both directions. I'm extremely curious to know why people from your area have such horrendous stereotypes and animosity toward people in my area. I had no stereotypes about people in your area when I got to SL. I simply did not know. All I knew, is that you have amazing accents. That's it.

Unfortunately, from the animosity that I detect from people from your area....I am developing a stereotype....and that's not what SL should be for! It should be the opposite!
I don't mind dispelling a stereotype for you (at least how it works in my area)....if you don't mind explaining where such harsh characteristics come from....from those words in that tagline.

Soji, that's AWESOME. (A sex pose ball, really? Bwah!)

It's really cool how many different things SL means to different people. Thanks for sharing that with me! I love that there are people who are firmly attached to one avatar, and others who might play around, but stay true to the one gender - and then others who are happy exploring all kinds of different possible selves. Cool like a cool thing.

I do find the idea of wandering around as an ACTUAL raccoon (or cat, or dog, or whatever) kind of fabulous. Although I can see how the giant glowing eyeball et al might be showstoppers! Do you just hang out and chat nonchalently with people, or do you act more raccoonish if you're a raccoon? I was thinking that if I was a cat, I'd probably just want to wander around sightseeing and maybe meow at people occasionally.



Yes, I see that now, Mickey. But you're wrong, you see; this was ALWAYS quite specifically about Chris. (Although by this point I'm feeling really bad for the poor bloke, because this has been a ridiculously huge discussion all about him.)



Mickey, like most nonAmericans, I wouldn't know a redneck if I fell over one - if by redneck you mean a person who happens to be from wherever the hell rednecks are from, and has a particular accent, or comes from a particular socioeconomic group. I could maybe tell the difference from someone from your town and someone from New York, but if you put your neighbours in a room with a bunch of other random Americans, I wouldn't have a clue which ones were from where. And I wouldn't give a damn. Other than it all being interesting and cool, 'cause most likely it would all be places I've not visited myself. And of course everything gets a shiny gloss of cool by virtue of being American.

I'd have a problem with ANY of them, from anywhere, who came across as racists, or homophobes, or sexists, and I'd probably have the hots for any of them who made me laugh or talked about Firefly or Hamlet. But I really could care less about ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religion or whatever categories you want to come up with.

I don't have any problem with people who are from ANYWHERE. Seriously. There are a few countries where I have real problems with their governments' policies, but I know lovely people from those places, so, y'know - people are people. I take them as I find them.

And how I found Chris, IN HIS POST, was bigoted, parochial, and narrow-minded.



Now, if your friends and neighbours use the term "redneck" in a "reclaiming-this-term-of-abuse" way, that's cool. Fair enough. People have done that with "nigger" and "queer" and so forth - if you're in the group concerned, then I think that's a positive thing. Maybe that's how Chris means it - as something that's value neutral, rather than something that's flying the flag for racism and bigotry. Thank you for making me aware of that possibility.

But I'd like you to consider the possibility that to most people on the internet (although I'm happy to accept this doesn't include your buddies and you, and people within a however-many-hundred-mile radius), the word "redneck" carries negative connotations.

I gave you the top three definitions listed on Dictionary.com - if you can think of a fairer way of gauging how that term is generally used, I'm open to suggestions.

Now, if he'd had a tagline that read, I don't know, "Fluffy Talkative Redneck" or "Shiny Happy Redneck" or "Friendly Outgoing Redneck" or "Sweet Sensitive Redneck" or "Geeky Gothic Redneck" or something, then no, I wouldn't have thought "Fuck it, he's a troll, let it go."

If it had read "Loud Arrogant Jerk" or "Loud Arrogant Sexist" or, hell, even "Loud Arrogant American" I'd have had the same "He's a troll, don't try to reason with him" response. The "bad apple" thing reinforces this impression.

Be honest, Mickey. Do you really think that "Loud Arrogant Redneck" is a neutral, approachable, open-minded kind of tag?

No.

It's three words, working together to create a very specific meaning. It's a challenge, a "what ya gonna do about it?" a "you feeling lucky, punk?" a "bring it on" kind of a tagline. It's a Fuck You of a tagline. It implies all the worst connotations of the word "redneck" because it's coming after "Loud" and "Arrogant". And that, appended to a post which was already brimming with fail, and topped off with the boast of being a bad apple, was the reason that I concluded he was a troll.

I didn't conclude he was a troll because of where he's from. I concluded he was a troll because THAT GUY MAKES HIMSELF LOOK LIKE A TROLL. With his post AND his tagline, taken together.

End of story.

...er, sorry? You're going to have to give me more here - I don't know what you mean by "my area" or by these horrendous stereotypes, but if you give me some more specifics, I may be able to help you.

However, obviously I'm not the Democratically Elected Representative of The Rest Of The World (heh) - I can speak for myself, and I can maybe give you some idea about the general impression people outside the US have of Americans, and some pointers on why those impressions are held, but it would probably help if you were more specific.



I'd be fascinated to hear both what you consider "my area" and what this stereotype is.



Do you mean the definitions? I just got them from Dictionary.com - and certainly two of those definitions of 'redneck' were sourced from major American Dictionaries. (I think the Random House one's American too?)

NOOOOOOO!

Anyway, I have over 300 avatars, of I have no idea how many species. I have to organize them by family, genus, and species to keep them straight. But in real life I'm a pack of otter-like aliens and share a single gestalt intelligence among myselves. Unfortunately, SL isn't sophisticated enough for me to render myself properly in-world, so I have to make do with a humanoid ferret as my "usual" self.

This is what I don't understand. Where did you get this from?



I consider it a term of endearment. I consider it humor or sarcasm. It implies the type of person, that I would hang with. Totally approachable. In your face, maybe....but honest....and straightforward.....and confident....no pussy-footing around. We are interpreting it two different ways. Why?

You mean where did I get the impression that Chris was a bigot? That would be from his post:



This is shallow, arrogant, and very racially charged. It either implies ignorance of the historical context in which Haiti's poverty and corruption has developed, and the pressure under which they (the first black republic in the history of the world, a country formed when slaves rebelled successfully, much to the horror of the rich white folks) have been put by the evil Western Imperialists - or else simply not giving a damn.

(1) "most of the people in the world would be living in the stone age" without us Western Imperialists. Really? No. Actually, not so much. I mean, I think that The British Empire probably did do some good as well as fuck people over, but you know what? The vast majority of those funny foreign chappies weren't living in the Stone Age before we got there with our flags and told them we were in charge. (Okay, Aborigines in Australia - yeah, I'll give you that. But then, they don't have much to thank us for, given the fact that we stole their land, killed loads of them with our diseases, told them they were worth shit, stole their children en masse, and shot them like dogs for shits and giggles. Next to that, the Stone Age probably looks pretty good.) Art, philosophy, science, engineering, technology - not, actually, invented by us Western Imperialists. Plenty of places in the world we have forced people to destroy their own economies, prevented them from being self-supporting and made them into client-states that depend upon us to buy the product that we're making them produce. We can do that, because we have the most power and resources, and because we talk oh so sweetly about the opportunities that will come if they just co-operate with us now, and the standards of living that will be raised if they just accept living in the gutter for the moment.

China? Not living in the Stone Age. Japan? Not living in the Stone Age. India? Not living in the Stone Age, even though they kicked their Western Conquerers to the curb. Hell, Cuba? Not living in the Stone Age either.

(2) "Just like with Haiti today, they can't build a society so who do they call to pull their chestnuts out of the fire, us evil Western imperialists."

Belittling the population of one of the poorest countries on the planet for clamouring for aid after their country has been wrecked? Classy. Real classy. It's not a new sentiment either - "They need us! They're savages! They're little better than children! They can't cope without us telling them what to do!" This is the kind of language that has been used by white people to strip people of colour of their human rights and their freedom again and again and again. To make them slaves, or second-class citizens in their own countries. This is the rationale that underlay apartheit in South Africa, and British rule in India. We white people? We're the clever, organised, competent ones. You brown people? You need us to tell you what to do. You can't manage on your own!

It's bullshit. Poverty is at the root of it, and poverty can be created by external pressures as well as internal ones. Western Imperialists bear a huge burden of responsibility for Haiti being in the state it's in now, and a lot of that is connected to race. Pretending that they're just incompetent children begging Daddy to come and save them from their own fuckups is profoundly patronising and very racially charged.


Here, Gary Younge gives a pretty good outline of ways in which the West have collectively screwed Haiti, if you want a quick overview:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/jan/31/west-haiti-bailout-reimbursed-brutality

wow.....you read a lot into that paragraph. I didn't read all that. I wonder why.

Possibly - and I don't know, I'm guessing here, maybe I'm wrong - because you're less politically aware/ less used to thinking about what it's like to NOT be American, or to be white, or to live in the First World/ have spent less time learning about the ways in which you're thoughtlessly embedded in white privilege? Because you haven't experienced what it's like to be an ethnic minority, or watched Western Imperialism in action? Because you haven't spent the last decade living and working in third world countries? Because you aren't (and I'm actually not trying to be a dick here) as engaged with education and learning as I am? Because you don't think very much about race, or ethnicity, or power? Because you don't read many books on the subject?

If the reference to non-Western people living in the Stone Age without our interference didn't strike you as utter bullshit...did you think that was a perfectly reasonable remark?

If you've not spent much time learning about the ways that white privilege infuses every aspect of America, or reflecting upon the ways in which bigotry is reinforced, then I can understand you not paying much attention to the way he was disparaging Haiti or the Haitians.

But your failure to notice that stuff? Doesn't mean it's not there. It just means that you have the luxury of not being affected by it, and haven't learned how to notice it.

wow again. You're not trying to be a dick? Let me think about that for a few minutes.

You know....I think you took a lot of liberties above....to imply that I am ignorant and thoughtless. That particular style...is what I've continually encountered from people from your area. Sorry. I don't understand it. It's disappointing, and it's hard to engage in understanding....as I would have to begin by clearing up all the above, very personally. That stuff cut to the bone, and I don't like that tactic. Sorry we can't have a discussion, and clear up some misconceptions.

Depending on the situation and the avatar, I tend to react as the avatar. Like most live music shows I've been to as a raccoon, I'd wave my paw and chitter, but not speak.

perhaps not all at once... your volume spans multiple posts in rapid fire... but I was actually agreeing with you =P

I dont know Chris. He seems "okay" but his description of being a redneck strikes a harsh chord for me (and would for friends of mine in real who are First Nations people). I am part black. Redneck to me means a "type" - very aryan, very aggresively non-supportive of people like me. (I am trying to be as non confrontational as possible here). I am really sorry about this cos I think deep down peopel dont underdstand how descriptors can impact what we "see" of a person.
Yes, I do have a problem with rednecks.
I consider the term redneck as denoting a bigot, reactionary racist. Any problems with that, Mickey?

Get the posts in while you can Jig, you only have a week left.

Then its only reality where I will be heard???
or read?
arrrgh!

This.

And its why I have so much trouble with "that kind of people" - by which I mean the Loud Arrogant Rednecks.

Void - I'm dreadful at the brevity, aren't I? Eh - it's partly to do with having spent so much time on LJ, but mostly it's me being me. My mother's verbosity plus my own readerly/writerly nature - it doesn't make for short posts or text speak.



Ah. And here I was genuinely trying to explain our different reactions.

As I said, I was making guesses, and maybe I'm wrong - you seemed puzzled about why we had such different interpretations of Chris's post. If I'm wrong, you just need to say so.

All the stuff I listed? That's about me, not about you - because I don't know much about you, Mickey. That's explaining why *I* reacted the way I did, and asking whether maybe your own experiences are different? Because I was taking your "I wonder why?" at face value and throwing up some possibilities.

I don't understand why my list of suggestions "cut to the bone". Come to that, I don't really understand why you seem determined to try to pigeonhole me in with "people from my area" and react to my posts on the basis of your preconceptions about "people from my area" - that does sound quite a lot like the thing you were upset about thinking someone had done to you. I'm me. I'm not my neighbours, my family or my friends, and my particular response is the product of me being me, not me being from Britain, or from a dirt-poor Northern mining town, or whatever.

So, in all sincerity:

Are you very politically aware?

Do you spend much time thinking about what it's like to NOT be American, or to be white, or to live in the First World?

Have you spent much time learning about the ways in which you're thoughtlessly embedded in white privilege?

Have you experienced what it's like to be an ethnic minority, or watched Western Imperialism in action?

Have you spent time living and working in third world countries?

Are you actively engaged with education and learning on a daily basis?

Do you think very much about race, or ethnicity, or power?

Do you read many books on the subject?

Seriously - I don't understand why you're taking these questions as an attack. If it helps, my father (whom I love to pieces) would definitely be answering NO to all the above (even though he comes from "my part of the world" and I doubt he'd find anything objectionable in Chris's post as a result. My mother's rather more politically aware than him, and likely to question her (and your) government's decisions, and be cynical about big businesses, but she's not a reader, and she still sends me junk e-mails with thoughtlessly racist implications that make me want to spork my eyes out. I love her more than anyone else on the planet, but she'd be answering NO to most of the questions above, and as a result she'd probably have found Chris's post unobjectionable too.

For clarity: I've no experience of what it's like to be an anything but white. I've been an ethnic minority a fair bit, but if you're white then you're still walking around in a bubble of privilege, rather than being vulnerable and victimised. I get a tiny glimpse of what it's like to not have the security of fitting in, but I'm still benefiting from the accident of birth that had me born white and in the West, even if I'm in Morocco or Cairo or Cambodia.

What I *have* done is spent several months last year reading about white privilege, and listening, and thinking, and discussing issues of race with my fellow fen over in LJ. There was a minor explosion in the SF/F and Fanfic communities as a result of something Elizabeth Bear did on her blog, and the repercussions lasted for months. I found it really helped make me aware of the ways in which racism is insidious, and made me much more conscious of the thoughtless privileges I happened to have the luxury of being born into. I mean, it's still a learning curve, and I think one spends one's whole life trying not to be a racist dick (and noticing ways in which one is), but I'm working on it.

Your too late. Forums is closing. Your welcome to find me in Zindra.

So am I sometimes but when did I mention length of post? I simply can't understand what you are on about that's all. You don't seem to be too bothered so we can let it go at that.

You don't have to worry much about what you (or anyone) will post though: we all have a week here and that's all. Also I don't like to mute people - bit bossy aren't you LOL.

I don't give access to my soul to Dicks.