Gender, identity and alts, oh my!

Hi there, lovely people! This is my first thread, and as I'm horribly noobish I'm probably going to manage to type this with one foot in my mouth - but it seemed to me that the forums were probably the best place to ask for advice.

This isn't a survey - I'm not a student or indeed an academic, as such, but in the short time I've been pottering around the grid I've found myself thinking Thinky Thoughts about gender identity and the performative nature of gender, and that kind of malarky.

(I joined SL in December '09 on a random whim under a different name, fell in love with the Steamlands and Caledon, settled down there... and then found myself growing curious about all the sex stuff, and about gender, and set up this alt a couple of weeks ago to have an identity that was less fixed than my original one. For the life of me I couldn't bring myself to drag my original identity out into the wilder and less salubrious corners of the grid, so I created Orlando to let other facets of my personality come out & play - and chose a name that seemed appropriate for someone who might be male one day and female the next. This makes perfect sense in my head, but writing it down makes me sound kind of psychotic. Um...)

Now, for me Second Life is really more like Third Life - I've been very active in online communities for a decade or so, but that's been primarily in fanfic and meta-commentary on various media, largely through LJ. Last year a couple of appallingly clueless and entitled blokes tried to use some of my LJ communities to help them with gathering raw data for a book about Internet Porn (for which they'd clearly already drawn their conclusions - doing the actual fact-finding was clearly just paperwork, as far as they were concerned). These guys were painfully privileged, about as objective as a very unobjective thing, and they dropped into our little world, made with the used-car-salesman-esque sales pitch about their research, and then launched into a survey that was RIDDLED with assumptions, prejudice, deeply flawed questions and other such crap.

We did not love these gentlemen. No we did not.

The sad thing was, though, that they'd initially had a lot of people willing to help them with their research, because we're generally pretty interested in meta, and in essays, and in pulling things apart and analysing the crap out of them, and the idea of a GENUINE study into what's happening with all the interlocking communities of fanfic writers - or even just the ones writing the big gay sex - was something we were largely positive about. Until we saw the questions, and ran started banging our heads on our keyboards.

Anyway, my experiences in SL - especially the past couple of weeks, where I've been playing around with different avis, and exploring the seedier locations in SL (be they gay, straight, lesbian, bi or other)....well, it's just got me mulling over things a lot. About what slash is, and about community, and about gender identity, and about sexuality, and all that kind of stuff. I've been mulling over the process involved in being an actor who plays someone of a different gender or sexuality, and being a writer who successfully writes protagonists of a different gender (and/or orientation), and just generally doing lots of pondering.

Because the theory these pillocks came up with was so riddled with fail that it was difficult to bust out the polysyllables and not simply go HULK SMASH!!! to explain their folly. And I strongly suspect that the straight-guys-who-have-female-avatars-are-closet-homosexuals theory, which I've bumped into a few times here in the forums, is equally nonsensical.

I think what's actually going on in both cases is something a lot more interesting and complex.

I haven't sat down and started trying to bash this out in essays yet, but I'm close to it, just for my own interest - and what I'd really like to do is talk to other people who are doing this kind of thing in SL. I know plenty about the process of writing characters who are of a gender and/or sexuality other than your own, and I think I've got some pretty sensible and informed perspectives on the predominantly female communities of slashers to which I belong - but I'm conscious that I'm still very much an SL noob, and I haven't a clue how to start finding out about this stuff in SL.

I should point out that I really don't CARE whether the avi I'm talking to at any given moment is actually operated by a man, a woman or a koala bear in RL - I've been kind of disconcerted by how many people seem frantic to find out this kind of stuff up front (age, gender, nationality blah blah blah) as if they need to be able to slot you into some preconceived categories before they can interact with you. I'm not interested in doing that myself at all, as an SL resident - we're all pixels, and what you see is what you get, and I kind of LOVE that, actually. That's part of why the Internet strikes me as so awesome, and such an equaliser.

But as the person on the other side of the keyboard, I can't help finding myself fascinated by the way in which having an actual avatar and a virtual environment fleshes out online interactions. And my experiences in SL are casting my previous online experiences in LJ in an fascinating new light. So I'm really interested to talk to guys who have chosen female avis - not so much people who are transgendered themselves and are choosing avis of the gender appropriate to their actual identity ('cause that doesn't ping me as being any more controversial or complex than cis-gendered women choosing female avis) but the straight guys who are sitting at home playing at being girls on the internet. I'd love to know more about what this means to them.

For that matter, I'd be interested to know if there are many women out there disguised as guys, or many straight people who experiment with their sexuality in the safe space of the internet? And then of course we've got people who choose to present themselves as anthropomorphic animals or Nekos - this has been my first time getting to meet furries, and although as a resident I'm very much "Hey, I love the hat that that duck is wearing!...wonder where he got it?" rather than "OMGWTFMallard!!!???!!!" (it would be too much to say unflappable when I've just mentioned a person disguised as a duck, wouldn't it?) on the grid, I still find it very interesting. And I still wonder how that fits in with all the rest of it.

Sorry, I do SUCK at brevity, don't I?

TL;DR version:

I am intrigued by people who present themselves in SL in ways that they absolutely do not (and perhaps do not even wish to) in RL, particularly guys who choose to be female in SL (either to be straight girls or lesbians). I'm discreet as a discreet thing, and although I have Thinky Thoughts, I'm not trying to distort your truth to fit with my preconceptions - I'm genuinely interested in listening and understanding whatever you might be inclined to tell me. (And I don't have an actual survey - although I may end up writing one, in the end. But, again - it's not for a class, I'm just curious.)

(1) are there books/resources/research that you're already aware of that covers this kind of thing, to which I might be able to turn? And

(2) do any of you feel like talking to me (here or in IM) about your own take on this? About how you think of your avi, and the reasons you've picked one who isn't your own gender/ sexual orientation/ species?

If all this seems too intrusive, then I do apologise - I figured the forums were the best place to ask this kind of question, though, without giving offense.

Maybe you should try a female reptilian avatar for a while and see what that does to your brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLOkGeLfoqY

Okay, the David Icke reference came within a hair's breadth of causing a very unfortunate coffee/keyboard disaster. But what a gorgeous avi! The shape & skin are fab, and I LOVED the detailing on the clothes too. I'm kind of itching to learn how to build things, but there just aren't enough hours in the day, and I'm trying really hard not to let SL eat my life. (But it's so addictive!)

Your creation reminded me a little, in its lovely alienness, of 'Perdido Street Station', which I'm reading just now. Don't know if you're familiar with it, but there are lots of very vivid and original creatures described in there - I'd LOVE to see if anyone has designed Avatars to resemble the scarab-headed khepri Mieville describes in the book.

It's funny - I feel like to some extent my personality, or the facets of my personality that I allow to surface, can be shaped by my avatar. I don't know if that's just me - I mean, when I'm writing or acting I do tend to immerse myself in my characters, and even though the characters can be wildly different from one another, they're still genuinely facets of me. Maybe other people stay pretty much the same from avi to avi? Or do you folks find that your speech patterns/behaviour/moral code/whatever shifts according to the way you're presenting yourself?

I think it's very liberating. And I think it's a particular kind of liberation that has been the province of actors and writers, up until recently - not normal people. It allows for some really interesting exploration of one's own identity.

Alas, I have nary a Linden to my name, so I don't think I'll be donning any non-human avis of that kind of complexity or sophistication any time soon - but I can already imagine how I'd be, if I were wearing an avi like that. I feel more kickass just looking at that impressively thick skin and those gorgeous stompy boots!

One of my friends did a piece of performance art in SL (and RL at the same time) asking what gender was. How mutable is it? She wears a dragon avatar and asked if she could define her gender as that and what would it mean. What if you defined your gender as, say, green?

Google 'Becoming Dragon'.

Most of the real artists in SL started with zero. Give it time. The fact you have an imagination working puts you miles ahead of the rl cloners and movie coattail riders.

Wow! Kara, thank you for that link - it was absolutely fascinating. That must have been one hell of an experience - 365 consecutive hours in SL, and so very intensively. Mad props to her!

The TL/DR version should really be at the start for us short attention types

To respond somewhat to your question- I understand the multiple av thing and participate in it myself. This me is known in a teeny way so if I wanted to go exploring as you say the wilder sides of my identity I am sure I would use an alt. Besides the fact that I identify so strongly with this me.

My most 'me' self, Hera, is happily partnered and collared. It helps me to keep the two sides of me apart - maybe I should have named my self Sybil? Last night though I amused myself and a couple of friends by logging in my two working alts and myself at the same time and we all threee look remarkably alike and happened to be dressed the same also

One thing I know I cannot do is change gender- I tried when I attempted to make men's clothese but to see myself staring out of a man's face was - well deeply disturbing - I have been objexts and creatures, but humanoids must always be female.

I meant to add, you are exactly for whom SL is meant or should be meant- you have a fire clearly detectable in your posts to consume SL and let it consume you. Good luck and enjoy it wholly - the ride is so worth it.

I find it's best to just clear my mind and take things as I find them. If you start trying to work out why people in SL are like they are, you'll start getting sleepless nights and end up a nervous wreck but still be none the wiser!

One defining moment for me was when I was at a beach club and a fat, bald man avatar turned up just wearing a tiny red thong. I looked in his profile and in his 'first-life' section there was a photo of his real self - a real fat, bald man and wearing a tiny red thong! After that I gave up trying to rationalise people's identity choices in SL

Hi Orlando,

Thank you for writing well. That's actually all I wanted to say. I'm terribly dull when it comes to avatar choices and the one time I created one that wasn't female I felt like a fraud, or like I was wearing a mask. And bored with the clothing and hair choices available! Poor guys.

So, nothing helpful to add to your delvings, but that I enjoyed your OP. You have a gift.

B.

wait, you travel in fanfic circles and you've just now become acquainted with furries?
:: blink :: seriously? I didn't know that was possible


two full pages... oh yeah... worse than me even.


the language you use tells me some of what you may have already read, but obviously none of that is going to cover the depth and breadth of what's in SL.... there's escapism, role play, fantasy, kink, fetish, plain old creativity, and a load of other things that go into "this kind of thing" and no one source is gonna cover it... probably not even a hundred sources...


my main account alone covers 8 species, 2 genders, 9 ethnic backgrounds, 4 sexual orientations, and 11 (character) occupations... currently. All created to be interesting characters in their own right, creatures of seemingly stark contrasts, but with subtle layers. and each because they were sparked by an interest in something or some visual concept that ended up taking on a life of it's in (character wise at any rate). All of them are me, because they incorporate parts of my own personality, but all are not me in that they also differ where it suits the character, and doesn't conflict with my own personality....

IF you can catch me online, I'm more than willing to talk your ear off about all this and more (possible much more if you've got that scripting disease)


oh hell, don't say things like that here... they'll smell the fresh meat and come looking to tear you apart.

Why are you so intrigued? I would suggest that you explore yourself....and not be so concerned with the inner depths of everyone's soul. Particularly if you think that you are in a position to "fix" them. You don't need one of us to lay out our souls....in order for you to adjust your "preconceptions"....figure out yourself, and why you have those.....before trying to delve into our souls.

Your response to someone based on a simple tag line........



If you get that cocky and judgmental over a tag line....no way are you getting access to my soul. And there's only one party that needs "fixing" in the above statement....and it's not the one it was addressed to.

Furry kits tend to be pretty cheap, many free ones at NCI.

You can get a full neko setup for about 200L from 'Adi'

You could get a full Usagi, Neko, Kitsune, or pig hybrid setup at Hybrid for about 300L or so.

You could go full on harpy or dragon or Beta Fish for under 100L at Grendel.

You could get a Na'vi from avatar for free, or on up to 3000L, depending. There's a notecard they pass around with a resource kit. In that card is a full set of free parts. Not quality, but it gets you 'in the door.'


You can get a full on AO that's pretty unique at 'Animation Shoppers - Toy & AO' for about 250L. These are the best AOs in second life, and the place is nearly unknown outside of the Asian community. I found it almost by accident last summer, and now all my avatars get their AOs there. Almost every vendor there also sells the animations individually, sometimes for as cheap as 10L... So once you know how to edit your AO and add animations (super easy), you can be really unique.



If you need cheap clothing...

Hit up NCI, Bare Rose, and Sarah Nerds. Then join a few Midnight Mania boards, and start asking around for shops with multiple prize chairs (so your letter is likely to come up within a reasonable time).

Once you start buying, Bare Rose sells male and female outfits in the 100-200L range that look better than what many people sell for 1000L.

You can kit up a full new avatar in SL to look absolutely amazing for under 2000L if you know where to shop. Cheaper if you don't mind using items more common on other 'newbies.'

Furry kits tend to be pretty cheap, many free ones at NCI.

You can get a full neko setup for about 200L from 'Adi'

You could get a full Usagi, Neko, Kitsune, or pig hybrid setup at Hybrid for about 300L or so.

You could go full on harpy or dragon or Beta Fish for under 100L at Grendel.

You could get a Na'vi from avatar for free, or on up to 3000L, depending. There's a notecard they pass around with a resource kit. In that card is a full set of free parts. Not quality, but it gets you 'in the door.'


You can get a full on AO that's pretty unique at 'Animation Shoppers - Toy & AO' for about 250L. These are the best AOs in second life, and the place is nearly unknown outside of the Asian community. I found it almost by accident last summer, and now all my avatars get their AOs there. Almost every vendor there also sells the animations individually, sometimes for as cheap as 10L... So once you know how to edit your AO and add animations (super easy), you can be really unique.



If you need cheap clothing...

Hit up NCI, Bare Rose, and Sarah Nerds. Then join a few Midnight Mania boards, and start asking around for shops with multiple prize chairs (so your letter is likely to come up within a reasonable time).

Once you start buying, Bare Rose sells male and female outfits in the 100-200L range that look better than what many people sell for 1000L.

You can kit up a full new avatar in SL to look absolutely amazing for under 2000L if you know where to shop. Cheaper if you don't mind using items more common on other 'newbies.'

I now only stay in one avatar which is my natural gender. But I do know a woman who logs in only as a male AV. She isn't any kind of cross-gendered; she did it because when she first joined SL she got tired of being hit on all the time. So she made a male AV and hasn't been harrassed since. I suspect that may be pretty common.

Second Life hooked me with all its private fantasies and dreams made public. I conducted a personal study of it. Having cyber sex with random people, playing what ever role they wanted, moulding myself to them in order to study them.
I found it a little scary that I could remain so detached from what I was doing; just so clinical.

I was very interesting. Now, I already take Second Life for granted with all the sky boxes, malls, houses, sky boxes, dungeon, malls, clubs, malls, sky boxes, houses, et cetera blurring into a sameness that means little to me.

On a side note, I would love some suggestions from people on things that people can actually -do- in Second Life. I have tried combat, flying, parachuting, kayaking, dancing, sex poses (& what not) and even fairly recently enjoyed some balloon ride. However, by and large, the majority seems to be cyber, dance afkish with spam scrolling past, cyber, shop, cyber and build.

Edit: I have also found some really interesting cases with people and their avatars. Unfortunately, most of them have been confided in me so I don't think I can or really should discuss them to any great depth of detail.

Pussycat - thank you for all those suggestions! That was tremendously helpful, and has given me much food for thought! I do appreciate you taking the time to make the list for me.

Paladin - ha! Yes, I can absolutely understand that! It's been my experience that one is treated differently (by both male and female avis) depending upon the gender of one's own avi. Not just in terms of getting hit on, or physically intimidated, either - in other, more subtle ways. I can certainly understand a woman losing patience and donning a male avi!



Why am I intrigued, Mickey? Because I see what appear to be interesting parallels between the sphere with which I'm most familiar, and that of SL. I'm certainly not trying to plumb the "inner depths of everyone's soul", but neither am I making the assumption that everyone's the same as me; I'm interested in other people's perspectives, because they shine light on my own. If you are only interested in your own perspective and in your own way of being, that's your prerogative.

I find life is a constant process of learning, and of questioning myself and the world around me in order to better understand myself and the rest of the world - through exchange of ideas, through travel, through reading, through research and introspection and discussion. And, latterly, through wandering around the grid in various natty little ensembles and thinking about the ways that this medium impacts upon how we interact.

Of course I don't NEED anyone else to lay out their souls - did this post sound needy to you? I expressed myself poorly, in that case. But I'm curious - and if you don't ask questions, you certainly won't get answers. I'm not demanding anyone spill their guts or unpack their deepest secrets - I'm just interested in having a conversation, and I figure there may be other people also interested in this kind of conversation. Thus this thread.

...wow. You're really pissed about my response to Chris in the other thread, though, aren't you? Did you come seek this thread out specifically in order to attack me? Do you feel I misjudged him/her? Perhaps so; two sentences brimming with fail and entitlement accompanied by a tagline that celebrates ignorance, arrogance and provocation kind of create a particular impression, though. If that impression genuinely doesn't do Chris justice, then I regret dismissing him/her so summarily. S/he struck me as trollish, but perhaps that isn't the case.

If you'd like to try to sell the idea that Western Imperialism is responsible for dragging the rest of the world out of the stone age, as Chris asserts - well, okay. You're already making more of an attempt to be articulate than Chris did, and there IS an argument one could build to defend this stance (we could talk about the legacy of Colonialism and the positive impacts of the Roman Empire or the British Empire, as well as looking at colonists' proclivity for decimation and genocide; we could consider John Company, and compare it to the way Western Businesses are gleefully profiting from wars right now; we could compare the virtues and vices of missionaries and mercenaries; we could talk about Australia's Stolen Generations, or about how within 30 years of Columbus reaching Hispaniola [ie the island where modern Haiti is today] Western Imperialism had already wiped out 70% of the population through the effects of slavery and smallpox, and how modern Haiti is peopled by the descendents of men and women kidnapped from their homes, stripped of their languages, faiths and families and treated as possessions and beasts of burden by good old Western Imperialists ). Of course, you'll probably need to abandon the contempt implicit in Chris's whole "stone age" disparagement of non-Western cultures in order to sell me this idea. But it's certainly not impossible - although I suspect you're not particularly invested in having that discussion, and that's fair enough.

Had Chris expressed him/herself in a more measured fashion, and given me reason to hope s/he was interested in such a discussion, I'd have gone there in the other thread - in fact, I was in the middle of going there when I saw their tagline, and paused, and thought: "Ah. Right. This person is not interested in intelligent debate, or they wouldn't be boasting about being an arrogant redneck or a bad seed even in jest - and certainly not in association with such an unpromising post. This would be as fruitful as engaging with Howard Stern. Back away from the Energy Creature, Orlando."

I'll grant you that my tone was dismissive, and "broken" was not a generous descriptor.

I may have been unfair. Chris may be a much more reflective, generous-spirited person than those casual lines implied. Chris may even be speaking from personal experience of enduring poverty in a third world country, for all I know - although the post and tagline strongly implied otherwise.

Still, someone self-identifying as an arrogant redneck who goes on to belittle people born into excruciating poverty, and to imply that showing compassion to men, women and children enduring the pure hell of trying to survive in Haiti after the earthquake should serve as a get-out-of-jail-free card when it comes to the rest of one's foreign policies...this person is wronger than a wrong thing from Wrongonia, on the planet Wrong, on Wrongmas Day, afaic.

Helping out our neighbours? Honestly, that isn't some special Western Skill, or the product of imperialism, or an impulse unique to the rich.

And Noblesse Oblige (ie the idea that the richer you are, the more incumbent upon you it is to help those who are less fortunate - or, as Spidey has it, "with great power comes great responsibility" isn't unique to the West either. Yes, the EU and the USA and China are donating big wads of cash to Haiti in their time of need; no, that doesn't erase damage we've done and still do (and profit from) elsewhere.

...yeah, you're right. I AM pretty judgmental at times. Not so much about gender or orientation or kinks or any of that, but about entitlement and compassion - yeah. Captain Patience isn't always steering the tugboat.

I may be unduly influenced by having recently watched more footage of the devastation wrought by the earthquake - or maybe just have my expectations of basic human decency raised unrealistically high by the teachings of the Lord Buddha. (And, hey, what does he know? He's some "Stone age" brown guy with no shoes who didn't get to benefit from Western Imperialism. Loser.) Either way, I thought Chris's remarks reeked of ignorance and entitlement, and concluded, upon balance, that life was too short to play nice.

Evidently YMMV.

(fwiw, I do think that it speaks well of you that you're clearly outraged at what you perceive as my dicklike behaviour. Not that I imagine you're interested in my opinion! But fair play to you.)

Just mute Chris.

He's a radical conservative, and you'll save yourself a lot of hassle doing so.

Unfortunately muting here isn't complete. You will still see when they post, and you see when people quote them...

Hey Orlando. Nice beginning. Dont think so much. Just enjoy. I tried being a man but I didnt really "get it" - I couldnt adjust to the male psyche. Men are hard.
Sex is great here isnt it? So many nuances and outrigger rules. IM me if you ever need a hand. Jiggity jig.

Dont pay any attention to what peopel say here. A lot of comments are more liek sneezes. I'll lend you my bf if you wanna experiemnt but not my partner.

Pay not serious attention to Chris. He has moments of puggy-picking. Radical conservative is okay, it's the trolling that can be a stitich in the side.

Jenshae - that sounds fascinating! As to the question of other activities in SL - there are also writing groups, live poetry readings, karaoke and live music performances - have you given those things a shot? And someone was telling me about various questy type things too - but I'm sure you've been there, done that and built the virtual T-shirt.



Aha! So that whole "do not feed the energy creature" reflex was on the ball, then? Good to know!



Thanks for the welcome! It sounds like quite a lot of people feel that way about changing the gender of their avatar - and then there are some people who are much more Anything Goes about it all. I know that, as a writer, I do write from the PoV of both male and female characters - I think that probably helps. And I've played both male and female roles as an actor too, come to think of it - but it's much easier in writing (or virtual space) where you can just be the person, and not worry about your own physicality.

(...My inner 13-year-old is still sniggering over "Men are hard - but I blame that on my On Duty Penis, with its fabulous array of settings. Sorry, sorry!)

Jeesh you write a lot. I like a bit of adrogeny. Nothing better on a dark night. Glad your penis is On. You better IM me before you explode. I'm going in world now.

Orlando - you write exactly the same way that my BFF does - and she's seriously into fanfic, and LJ. As a matter of fact, if I didn't know that she was seriously adverse to SL because it "takes up too much time," I would swear you were her. Hell, maybe you ARE her. At any rate, I think that you're over-analyzing SL. People just are what they are. I'm female in RL and have tried being male in SL, and don't really "get it." On the other hand, I have very close friends who are male in RL and are female in SL, and vice-versa, and they feel very comfortable, even "at home" in those roles. The great thing about SL is its fluidity. It really doesn't MATTER, in the long run, what or who the keyboardist is. SL gives us a chance to be who we are in our inner most self. I think that you'll find, after a while, that the chaff winnows out in certain communities. The folks who actually rabidly CARE about the sex/preference of the keyboardist will disappear eventually, and the folks who care more about the Inner Self remain.

Welcome to SL and I look forward to seeing more of your posts.

Oryx

I only have the one AV and she is the same sex as the RL me. I have never wanted to play a male or any other specimen of life form.

I have no issue about taking my av to a pg sim or a full on adult sim. I have been into several RP areas also and all i do is dress what is correct for the areas .

i'm straight male in rl, and have a handful of male avatars who are straight males in sl, and two female avatars who are straight females. i avoid worrying much about how technically accurately i am 'portraying' a female in those alts, i'm basically still just being an aspect of myself here in sl that has no voice in rl but can have one here. as a point of interest it has pretty much nothing to do with gender and almost everything to do with just enjoying being diverse and complicated and the joy of sex for its own sake and ... well i dont know, whatever happens that makes a day fun.

It doesn't sound like you are interested in others' perspectives at all. Not if you label a category of people as being insincere, without heart, lacking wit, and uneducated. You packed a powerful punch there, with one swoop.....that had no base. Chris is on his own.....but I live among the people (that you would call rednecks).....and I take offense to your statement. Because I have "yankee" blood (as they call it)....I cannot truly be one....but I have their heart and soul in me. And to suggest that they need "fixing" is out of line, and certainly was not warranted in that context.

To suggest that they need "fixing" also suggests that anyone who has a background or persona that you don't "understand" may need "fixing" as well. And that's not really a good place to be in your head, as you roam about SL.



ok, I don't need a lecture on this. As I am wandering about.....I try very, very hard not to pass harsh judgments toward people who are different than I am. None of us are guilt-free in passing judgments....but if we must.....perhaps we could be a bit gentler in doing so. And I cannot preach gentleness....it all depends on whether or not you are put on the defensive.



Yes, the post sounded very needy, as you spent a ton of time talking about yourself, and it required a ton of time to read, in order to respond. You were delving into some aspects that most would consider very private and very personal....so yes, that would imply a request to "spill guts and unpack their deepest secrets." Some will do that for you on a message board...some will do one-on-one with you....and some won't care to at all.



Damn straight I'm pissed. I suppose that if I took your stereotype, and spelled out every negative quality that I could pull from the air (unjustified), and laid it out for you, in this thread....you would be a wee bit pissed too. You most certainly misjudged someone....as well as an entire category of people with what I consider a very "uneducated" and close-minded assessment. Based on a tag line? If you can come to that conclusion based on 3 words.....then heaven forbid the conclusions you will draw when someone offers you up an entire paragraph.



Chris is on his own. But I find it humorous that you have a problem with "arrogance." Personally....I would prefer to read it spelled out clearly in one word.....than to read through 10 paragraphs of undertone.

I am not addressing your political views. I was addressing your labeling of a stereotype, with derogatory comments, and implying that someone is "broken", and needs to be "fixed."

If you're going to suggest in one thread....that people who you do not understand need to be "fixed"....then I find it awkward to see you start another thread.....asking to understand people in depth, with soul searching. Pardon my suspicions and contempt.

As for the suggestions to not pay attention to Chris.....I think that would be a huge mistake on your part. You very clearly could benefit from an education there, as could I, or others.... watching the discussion. Probably too late for an engagement, though. And I find that sad. It's one of the main reasons I come to SL.