$10k R/L dollars to START at the electric sheep co?

Well, by the looks of the posts, you guys were thoroughly examined by the forum today, yes. Am glad you spoke up. But nothing was really overlooked. And there were many pros and cons about many aspects of RL business in general in SL. As for not being alts or not having work handed to you, it seems to be more your word against the crowd, more or less. But when I read the post by Lewis Nerd, it had the ring of authenticity. That is your business, however, and totally not mine. But that is neither here nor there for my concerns as well. My concern only dealt with cost.

So, while I appreciate your support of the ESC, I'm so glad I asked about your company today. It's hardly the only group out there that can 'offer business solutions' as I've chatted with some wonderfully talented people today about addressing the needs of my small company. They are professional and with much less hype, if I may say so, than your ESC. Again, sorry that we disagree about the practices of your SL business venture. The best of luck to you.

And we all know that mob rule is a wonderful thing. Since when does a crowd of people accusing someone of being something equate to guilt of some kind?



And their company was outside the range of what you needed or wanted. Easily understood, I can't afford to hire the Beach Boys to play music at my son's birthday party either.



You don't disagree with their practices. You have decided that you can't afford them. If I decide a store costs too much, I stop shopping there. That's not a disagreement, that's a commercial decision.

Lastly, I have never worked for ESC or with it's members. Anyone looking at their site can see that easily. More, I run SLDrama.com. It's a community site I pay for out of my own pockets, and can honestly say does not even begin to pay for itself.

So why do I speak up? because I'm tired of people poking at groups that try to take SL seriously. ESC has pulled in business. Businesses spend money with Linden Lab. Linden Lab likes the money and keeps SL up and running.

So yes. Every business that ESC brings in helps SL in the long run. Is it all about money?

Well. Stop paying your bills and tell me how it turns out... That is, if they have not turned off your power or internet connection by that time...


On second thought, I should look into ESC... They DO look interesting.

People are, of course, free to believe what they want to, and they usually will. I wanted to clarify the question from the standpoint of someone that works for ESC and would therefore know for certain instead of theorizing, but in the end its up to people to decide what they want to believe.

In specific regards to Linden alts, there is one development company (MOU) that was founded by an former employee of Linden Lab, and they've been extremely transparent about that fact. I don't see why, if another employee of Linden Lab wanted to apply and was subsequently hired by ESC, we would try to hide the fact either. Just from a logistics standpoint, I'd be hard pressed to figure out how someone could hold two full time (and in most cases more than full time) jobs, one with LL and one with ESC, simultaneously.



ESC absolutely isn't the only company out there that can offer business solutions - far from it, and to my knowledge we've never positioned ourselves as such. We do try to offer a broad range of services to best tackle any project requests, but no company fits every scenario perfectly. There never has been, no matter what business. Budgets, time, specific requirements, even things like RL location and support are all things that add into the equation.

If you're pleased with the work performed by the other company you've found to work with, if you don't mind, drop me an inworld message or PM me here. One thing I run into quite a bit are people that ask "well, who else would you recommend?" It seems there is a big gap right now between the RL development companies like ESC, RRR, MOU and Infinite Mind, and the people who would love to start doing more SL-based work as a business but don't know how to get off the ground and get the word out. There's so many projects out there just looking for the right company to work on them, and ESC can't fill every gap (there's not a lot of companies that try that "everything to everyone" approach and succeed), so I'd love to increase my list of alternatives to give people to contact when ESC wouldn't be the best fit. Best of luck on your project!

He looks like he really fits in with with the ESC! Good luck!

When I chatted with Forseti the other day, he gave me the distinct impression that it was the ESC that did the VLB work for There.com. That the mockup was done here in SL. That the account was NOT 'lost' to There.com , but it had been more planned as a way to get it to that space. As in, do the mockup in sl, pack it up, send it to 'there'.

Now I read in another area of the forum, Cory's post saying 'well we gave it the old college try' and Cristiano somebody saying that the account was 'lost'to There.com because of a better interface etc.


I really do listen when people talk. And I try to get things as straight as possible. Was the account lost or was this an intentional transfer of design blueprint to There.com? If you cannot answer this, I totally understand.


If you could give me your opinion on There, that would be great!

Thankyou for your input!

Everything on their site appears to be BIG.

Anyone can design something on a whole island, with 15000 prims to spare.

Question is... where are their small projects, for the average SL user?

Everything I build, and offer, is done with the regular SL'er in mind. There are tens of thousands of 'us', compared to the big corporate projects that are few and far between - and don't fool yourself; corporate projects are nothing more than a cheap advertising outlet and do not enhance your regular Joe Avatar's SL experience at all. I see brands like American Apparel being in SL as spam email or popup adverts on a website - unneeded, unappreciated, and unwanted.

Lewis

Have started a new and great thread about 'business solutions' that has one of your great posts as a starter quote.

Your very helpful and honest approach to offering services and information about SL business practices will be quite welcomed by companies looking for an SL presence for their products! I will ensure that any and all opinions are heard and not discredited. Let your insight help real businesses make an easier transition to SL without the hype.

Cory, Forseti and the ESC are welcome to join the discussion as well. Toning down marketing jargon for the sake of direct communication is helpful and is suggested for this thread, however.


Thankyou all!

Tina, why don't you contact them directly?

Lewis Nerd's comments are certainly valid, but also represent only one person's view.

First, "... big corporate projects that are few and far between ..." well, that is due, in large part, to the lack of builders/designers going out and soliciting business. When the Web was in its infancy, the "big corporate websites" were also few and far between. Early entrepreneurs took the initiative and started selling their site design skills, along with selling the reason to have a site, and look where we are today.

Do I think SL will become the next WWW? No... but, I absolutely see a fully 3D web surfing experience in the not too distant future. SL can be viewed as an excellent incubator, both for companies who will make use of 3D web and for companies who will build the sites.

And, "... I see brands ... being in SL as spam email or popup adverts on a website - unneeded, unappreciated, and unwanted..." again, Lewis is entitled to his view, but on this one I (personally) disagree. In SL, you have to seek-out the branded elements. If you never TP to these locations, you are never presented with their products and advertising. Currently, there is an abundance of in-world advertising for SL specific products. I would hardly consider the addition of big, RL company locations - existing on private islands, with creative, quality builds and graphics - as being a negative aspect.

There are many RL companies whose presence I would welcome in SL. If I enjoy the SL environment to begin with, it seems to follow that being able to TP over to ABC Company Island to chat with a support rep for a product I am using would be a natural extension. Certainly beats the heck out of email, forums or a phone call.

Just my thoughts - take them as you will

Wait till some of the so-called "hobbyists" start giving them a run for their money.

"Professional" is a self-defining non-term anyway. Professional: We say we are. Hobbyist: They don't say they are.

People from each group can do equally good work, equally reliably and equally professionally.

coco

P.S. (Posting as I read along)

And I disagree with Lewis's comments:

"If your sole RL income is based on what happens in SL, then you are a professional.

"Everyone else is a hobbyist, doing it part time, either for fun or for supplementary income.

"If you have a real job, and make an extra $5,000 a year from SL, you're in the same grade as a newbie who makes their first prim chair and manages to sell three from a vendor in 6 months."

If you make an extra $5,000 a year from SL, that IS a real job.

The difference between a real job and a hobby is the making a profit after legitimate expenses are deducted. If you make no profit, it is a hobby. It doesn't matter how much profit you make, or how many hours it took you to do so.

Some people's income consists of several jobs, and each of them is a "real job."

Now we could argue about just how "professional" various professionals are, but anyone who makes a profit at a job is no longer an amateur or a hobbyist. He is a professional doing a real job. (Well or not well is another issue.)

coco

Well, yes and no. Equally good (or even better) work? Sure.

However, if I'm a RL company, and I want to seriously build a presence in SL, I am much more likely to hire a company that can show me that they have sufficient real-world staff and experience to get the job done. I'm far less likely to hire an individual who builds objects in SL in his spare time.

Yes, and it's not just the builds they do, apparently, it is the "presence" thing - the whole enchilada thing - that they offer.

This is what companies need, not individuals who build objects in SL in their spare time (like me). If we get enough companies - and if LL doesn't just shovel all the companies to their personal favorite - then several such business as Electric Sheep should be able to exist, and there will be competition.

And to Luth, who was talking above about the concept of fun - I agree, and I would posit that those in Electric Sheep are having fun. Especially in the beginning of doing something, that's always fun and exciting.

Now if I wanted to have fun in that way, I would absolutely give Electric Sheep a run for its money, even if LL stacked the deck against me. But at a certain stage in life, one has the luxury of deciding exactly which projects they consider fun, and which they don't, and still make plenty of dough. (In my real life, I've had that luxury ever since I first started out, in fact.)

To me, it simply wouldn't be fun to work for these companies, but for others, such as those in Electric Sheep, it is.

coco

P.S. Edit: Several businesses such as Electric Sheep apparently do already exist.

cocoa, I would have expected better from you. You certainly never would have heard a condescending distinction between hobbyists and professionals from Cory and I, both of whom have been residents of SL long before joining ESC, and "hobbyists" ourselves back when we had other full time jobs.

I'm going to speak as resident for a second and not as "ESC" person.

There is great work done all over SL in projects large and small, fun and serious, and all things in between. Cool! I think it's great that someone looking for help in SL has so many places to look.

As you can see from my post count, there was a time when I was quite active on these forums, but there came a point where I realized that a lot of the arguments were not going anywhere. Lewis and I will never agree, and that's okay. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the passion for the future of this platform is cool. When prok and I get together in RL, I really enjoy debating all things SL with her!

My opinion has always been that SL is big enough for everybody. I don't try to define how SL should be used. I don't go up to other people and say "your community is bad" or "your project sucks". I think that a lot of residents see brand projects in SL and think, "how does this add value to me?" I say give it time - it will come. Companies are just dipping their toes in the water and learning lessons. From my point of view, the most important thing about a brand entry into Second Life is that be opt-in... i.e. if a resident wants to participate, then they can. If they don't, then they can ignore the project. I take the same approach towards resident projects. I think I've spent all of 20 seconds on the Gor sims, but I'm not going to tell them they should not be in SL. If it's not your cup of tea, ignore it.

You can look at the current marathon building stunt that versu and millions of us are doing for Intel. Does it add "value" to residents? Maybe not, but I still think it's cool. I think it's great to show the broader world what a rapid prototyping engine Second Life can be. Take a look at ESC's aloft project -- does it add "value" to residents? Maybe not, but it sure is an interesting experiment for Starwood in terms of how to get consumer feedback on design before a product (in this case a hotel line) is released. And you know the great thing -- only those who WANT to be involved have to be. That said, we really do push our clients to do things that would be fun or interesting or useful to the broader community. Sometimes our arguments work, sometimes not.

One size does not fit all. The virtual world is big enough for everyone. This isn't the real world where we have to fight over resources like land or oil or water sources. Isn't that exciting to people?

I probably won't respond further in this thread, because Tina seems to have a strange agenda going on here with her baiting and multiple threads, but I do welcome all those who have questions about ESC to post to Cory's blog at http://blogs.electricsheepcompany.com/cory/

cheers
Forseti

Actually, Forsetti, I was responding to Fade, when he said:

"They can offer service and professionalism above and beyond what a hobbyist or someone playing a 'game' can. It goes beyond messing with a few prims."

So see, we are not in disagreement.

As for the Versu thing, I tried to find that, day before yesterday, I believe it was, to go participate in it, but I could not find it anywhere on the events page, even no matter what various words I put into the search engine. (Or just examining the whole list closely.) So I gave up, and assumed they really didn't want it publicized so that we could go to it.

Which didn't exactly function as good PR for Intel or any of the people involved in it.

I agree with the rest of your post.

coco

I know Coco. I wouldn't distinguish between either in terms of quality or necessarily professionalism (what I meant was, they probably have RL facilities like telephones that make RL interactions smoother), even though that's what I typed. I didn't express myself well, but what I meant to say, but clearly didn't, is that they offer an extended service that people like us can't or don't really. Companies like ESC can guide a company into operating in a virtual world and develop a strategy for them, that sort of thing.

Hobbyist is a poor term for what people do in SL, because it doesn't really take in the breadth of ways in which people can choose to operate in SL, and people sometimes view the term as a negative thing, which it's not.

sorry cocoa! I hear what you are saying.

btw, I think to control lag (because it *was* a speed building exercise) Millions of Us was limiting the numbers of people on the Intel island, but you could IM Rodica MillionsofUs (I hope I got that name right) to get an invite. Is the event over now though? I'll have to check MoU's website... the resulting build is supposed to be open to the public to check out though, afaik

We might not be talking about the same thing. I thought you were talking about this thing for Intel where someone sat in a store window irl in Manhattan, I believe, while watcing the inworld build, where people also were. They were going to do this for 72 hours or something.

I'd tried to visit the inworld portion of it, but couldn't find it. It was a finished thing, though, I think - the people there weren't building, just hanging out.

coco

Forseti kicked my puppy.

(better enjoy this. I spent 10 minutes looking for fire that looked THIS good.)

(And that ain't so good...)

No i like this.

While Versu was building - and, OMG, what she achieved in those 72 hours! - the sim was closed to the public and could only be reached by getting an invitation to a certain group. Those invitations were handed out by Rodica MillionsOfUs on request.

After Versu was finished the sim was opened to the public. I visited it this morning and was terribly impressed.

That they did not much in the way of inworld PR probably has a a simple explanation. They (especially their sponsor Intel/Ogilvy) was not interested in inworld PR. And it was not intended as a "participatory" kind of event. Every PR campaign has a target group. And SL's residents were - at best - at the fringes of that target group.

ESC charges that kind of money because ESC markets their services to real world businesses, and they are charging rl prices for their service. A rl company has no problem paying those kind of dollars for professional services, they do it all the time. Ask a resident to pay that kind of money for a build and they would laugh in your face. Different market, different price. In rl, do you pay a dollar for something that took a designer a week to make? In SL you do it all the time and it warps everyone's thinking.

This doesn't mean that there are not builders in SL who aren't as good or better, they just aren't taking it outside of SL, where working for pennies on the dollar for other residents is the norm.

And it also involves far, far more than just building. They are running a real company which takes a *lot* of work above and beyond the actual build, in a sense, that is the easy part. The marketing, persuing clients, offering a wide range of services and strategies for a real business, networking... it's far more than most do in SL or are honestly willing to do. It's... a fulltime real job and like any business, takes a plan and total commitment, plus some luck to succeed. If they have little competition, it's simply because for most people, this would involve too much time and work, like starting up any business in real life. And with thousands of dollars on the line and deadlines, it's not as much fun as the average sl business, either.

Ok! This thread has far too many personal attacks to be useful. Locking for Linden Review.