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Should we have a 5-15 minute delay to reduce the risk of landgrabs due to mistakes

Gina Jacks
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Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
06-29-2007 15:23
From: Alazarin Mondrian
Implementing a popup dialogue requiring the seller to agree to sell their land to Joe Avatar when Joe Avatar clicks on the land parcel to buy it sounds like a great idea for private sales. It would be a bit of a problem for your run-of-the-mill land traders who would be stuck clicking on dialogue box buttons all day long. Maybe make such a sale confirmation dialogue box a default option that could be bypassed so that land dealers could get on with their second lives rather than being reduced to the level of a rat in a Skinner Box?


YES
Gina Jacks
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Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
06-29-2007 15:23
From: CyFishy Traveler
I agree a bypass option should be included. I also think that if an email prompt should be send on a land offer so people can be poked to log in and accept or decline it.


YES
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
06-29-2007 15:27
From: CyFishy Traveler
I agree a bypass option should be included. I also think that if an email prompt should be send on a land offer so people can be poked to log in and accept or decline it.

What if you are not able to log in when you receive he email?
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Gina Jacks
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Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
06-29-2007 15:27
From: Argos Hawks
You're missing the major point. People are losing land to landbots because they either do not know they exist, or do not realize how fast they can act. You can have your buyer standing right next to you and be the only 2 people in the sim surrounded by empty sims, with your buyer's finger waiting to click 'buy' as soon as you click 'sell', and the landbot will still take it. If you've never seen it happen, you can't imagine how fast it is. The landbot can complete the purchase faster than you can get your finger off the mouse from clicking sell. Even if there was only a 30 second delay before the land went into the search listing, it would stop most of these landbot swoops from happening. Asking for more confirmations from the seller isn't going to help if the seller doesn't realize how fast the bots can act and believes that the only person with a chance of buying is their intended seller.


That's right, you have to see it happening to believe it.

Not even the time to set the autoreturn to 1 Dab said!
Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
06-29-2007 15:30
From: Gina Jacks
I voted for 6 hours.

I also like the option for the seller to receive a message/pop box that ask to "accept" or "decline", like when we receive inventory offers.

Can anyone help me to create such a poll please?
Seven people volunteered, but you had them all on "ignore". ;)
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Aleister Montgomery
Minding the gap
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 846
06-29-2007 15:36
I have nothing against a short delay of 5 or 10 minutes. People who failed to check their settings before clicking the OK button are possibly unlikely to check them afterwards, but it might help in cases of "Doh, I think I forgot to...".

The same delay would be nice for Linden vendors (unscripted prim vendors).
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
06-29-2007 15:39
From: Raymond Figtree
Seven people volunteered, but you had them all on "ignore". ;)

Make it 8 now Figgie.
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Gina Jacks
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Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
06-29-2007 15:44
From: Raymond Figtree
Seven people volunteered, but you had them all on "ignore". ;)


So what? Obviously I am not interested in them if they are on my ignore list, and how do you know that, are you stalking, or maybe have a super duper amazing memory?
Or is there a feature, so you can look on my profile to see people on my ignore list?

I don't even know myself how many people are on my ignore list, I am grateful that the feature is there.
Argos Hawks
Eclectically Esoteric
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
06-29-2007 15:58
From: Jack Sakigake
Then why dont people read twice what they typed and wait five minutes before they click on the sell button? That requires no change and could take effect immediately. Why are people in such a hurry to click on the sell button when it's their money on the line?

I spelled it out, and you missed the point again. Many of these problems with the landbots are not because the seller put in the wrong information. The seller verifies that everything they entered is what they intended to enter. The problem is that they are unaware that the landbots can act at nearly the speed of light. People assume that because their intended buyer is the only other person in the sim, that nobody would be able to TP in, bring up the About Land window, click Buy Land, and verify the purchase before their intended buyer. Landbots do all of that and return all items before your finger can leave the mouse after clicking Sell. The post you responded to said absolutely nothing about the seller not double-checking the details before they click the Sell button.
Jake Trenchard
Registered User
Join date: 31 May 2007
Posts: 104
06-29-2007 17:05
I have to say, Argos, that I think the solution to -that- is to make selling to a single individual the default and selling to everyone an option that requires separate confirmation. I don't really understand why people are misunderstanding what they are supposed to do, but that they are doing so chronically suggests that the interface is faulty.
Broken Xeno
~Fething Alt~
Join date: 9 Mar 2007
Posts: 632
06-29-2007 18:48
hm, no delay. I feel bad for the people who get screwed, I really do. Mistakes happen, but I don't want a delay. It was said earlier in this thread, but people should read and reread their info before posting the sale.
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Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
06-30-2007 02:47
Ok, at the time of this post the results were:

94 were in favour of a delay (80.3%)
23 against (19.7%)

55 supported a 5 minute delay (47.0%)
15 supported a 15 minute delay (12.8%)
9 supported a 10 minute delay (7.7%)

On that basis I have created a jira request for a 5 minute delay

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-376

Please vote there if you are in favour of these (or add your comments there).
Dylan Rickenbacker
Animator
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 365
There already is a user configurable delay ...
06-30-2007 02:58
... you just take whatever time seems necessary to you going over your land sale dialog until you're sure everything's right BEFORE you send it off. So no, I don't think a built-in delay would be helpful.
Broken Xeno
~Fething Alt~
Join date: 9 Mar 2007
Posts: 632
06-30-2007 03:00
All a built in delay says to me is that we need to have our hands holded. Last I checked we're all (supposedly) over the age of 18. I don't need my hand held when I am selling land, I've never had a problem.

People who are careless apparantly don't care enough about their own property to make sure everything is right before clicking sell.
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Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
06-30-2007 03:39
From: Broken Xeno
All a built in delay says to me is that we need to have our hands holded. Last I checked we're all (supposedly) over the age of 18. I don't need my hand held when I am selling land, I've never had a problem.


Humans being humans make mistakes, humans being humans have second thoughts.

Before landbots, you had a good chance of being able to check what you had done after putting it for sale, think better of it, take it off the market etc. before someone came in and bought the land.

The delay just redresses the imbalance in this respect which has been caused by landbots.

Anyway I've put a link to this poll in the jira entry.

Matthew
Matthew Dowd
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Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
06-30-2007 03:44
From: Dylan Rickenbacker
... you just take whatever time seems necessary to you going over your land sale dialog until you're sure everything's right BEFORE you send it off. So no, I don't think a built-in delay would be helpful.


As has been mentioned - quite a few newbies selling land in person to a third party also present in an otherwise empty sim often think it safe not to set the explicit sell to person (at least the first time), probably because of the extra effort needed to type the name and search for someone standing right next to them! The delay would reduce the risk here.

Also, due to lags, bugs etc. that dialog is not always reliable, and there are occasions when what has gone up for sale was NOT what was confirmed in that dialog. A short delay would allow you to check that the sale set is what you intended.

Matthew
Har Fairweather
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Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
06-30-2007 09:38
From: Matthew Dowd
As has been mentioned - quite a few newbies selling land in person to a third party also present in an otherwise empty sim often think it safe not to set the explicit sell to person (at least the first time), probably because of the extra effort needed to type the name and search for someone standing right next to them! The delay would reduce the risk here.

Also, due to lags, bugs etc. that dialog is not always reliable, and there are occasions when what has gone up for sale was NOT what was confirmed in that dialog. A short delay would allow you to check that the sale set is what you intended.

Matthew


Come to think of it, there should probably also be a warning that programmed buyers can instantly purchase any property marked sale to anyone, and are you willing to take that risk? Then the onus really would be on the seller. (With a "Don't show again" one can check.)
Snowflake Fairymeadow
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 704
06-30-2007 09:55
A delay will not help when the problem is people setting their land to sale to "anyone" and then being upset when "anyone" is able to buy the land.
Cherry Czervik
Came To Her Senses
Join date: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 3,680
06-30-2007 10:11
Yeah

Then when the land price resets itself and people are too chickenshit to back you up, you might JUST have a chance to claim back the 100$ you are down.

(For those who saw my post about this I was told "but I would be abusing my powers" by the estate owner)
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Gina Jacks
Registered User
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
06-30-2007 12:59
From: Cherry Czervik
Yeah

Then when the land price resets itself and people are too chickenshit to back you up, you might JUST have a chance to claim back the 100$ you are down.

(For those who saw my post about this I was told "but I would be abusing my powers" by the estate owner)


This is happening to me all the time, the PRICE RESET ITSELF far too often, I have mention it as well.

Any Linden or tech guys can explain why this is happening?

Could it be the bots scanning the SIM(s) and straining the servers, creating errors/bugs and glitches?

Because incidentally, it always happens when there are other parcels set for sale on the same SIM.
Argos Hawks
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Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
06-30-2007 16:49
From: Jake Trenchard
I have to say, Argos, that I think the solution to -that- is to make selling to a single individual the default and selling to everyone an option that requires separate confirmation. I don't really understand why people are misunderstanding what they are supposed to do, but that they are doing so chronically suggests that the interface is faulty.

You just don't get it. When there is nobody else around other than the seller and intended buyer, the seller sees no reason to go through the extra steps required to put the name in. People do understand the process for selling land, checking the numbers they've put in, and reserving the land for a specific person. What they don't understand is the speed of the landbots. Even if selling to an individual was the default, it will still be easier to click anyone instead of looking up the persons name. If the buyer is standing next to the seller, and there's nobody else around, there's no reason for the seller to believe that anyone else would have a chance to get the property.
Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
06-30-2007 17:11
From: Argos Hawks
You just don't get it. When there is nobody else around other than the seller and intended buyer, the seller sees no reason to go through the extra steps required to put the name in. People do understand the process for selling land, checking the numbers they've put in, and reserving the land for a specific person. What they don't understand is the speed of the landbots. Even if selling to an individual was the default, it will still be easier to click anyone instead of looking up the persons name. If the buyer is standing next to the seller, and there's nobody else around, there's no reason for the seller to believe that anyone else would have a chance to get the property.


So we should pass "laws" to protect people from their own laziness?
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Daz Honey
Fine, Fine Artist
Join date: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 599
06-30-2007 17:52
I say we just ask LL to add a 'are you sure you want to do this?' box that way you have to be realllly out of it to accidentally screw up.

I think alot of the problem here is that people are upset because bots don't opporate on the same rules as everyone else and that's not 'fair'. But just he fact that someone had the genius to invent them should make you realise the possibilities of thinking outside the box.

The small minority of fumble-fingered possibly drunk or having a bad day people who accidently screw up their land sale are being described as victims of this plot by land bots to deny them their rights to screw up and get a free pass which is absurd in my opinion.
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
06-30-2007 18:22
There should be a delay for normal sales but no delay when selling to a specific person.
It's rather interesting how many Landbot owners aren't in favour of a system that won't hurt ethical landbot use at all. wow you use a Landbot that buys land nearly instantly across the grid that would have sat there for at least 5 minutes possibly 5 hours before an actual person buyer found it anyway. The unethethical landbots will be in the same boat as you, so no problem.
It takes 8 weeks to sell land in RL, whats 5 minutes in VR?
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
06-30-2007 18:24
From: Stylee Streeter
im on earth in 2007, where a contract can be agreed at the touch of a button.
i am guessing you live in the 1940s and still own a quill then :p

Yeah you can transfer RL real estate with one click? Funny didn't see that option anywhere during the 8 week process, 3 inspections and 30 documents to sign to sell my RL house.
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