It's time for SL residents to take a stand

Banks are regulated on the state and federal levels. Whether an institution qualifies under specific laws or regulations will depend on the types of business it does. Whether an institution would qualify as a regulated entity, and to exactly which laws and regulations it would be held, is probably not going to be a quick an easy answer in any case. (Banking law as a whole in the United States is much more complicated than in other countries.)

However, as a rule of thumb, almost any business that acts as a fiduciary for someone else's money is probably regulated at some level. Also, as a rule of thumb, many laws and regulations governing businesses that handle others' money cannot be easily "opted out" through disclaimers.

If anyone has been defrauded by an instutition, that person can report the fraud to the responsible authorities directly. No such person has to ask Linden Labs to do it for them.

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, of the U.S. Treasury Department, may be the place to start the complaint. The state in which the institution is based probably has a web site with information for consumers to file complaints about banks.

But if this were truly unregulated banking or fraud, I don't see why people would be waiting around for Linden Labs to act on. Get law enforcement to act on it.

P.S. Lindens are not play money.

Monopoly money is play money. I get a certain amount of Monopoly money at the start of the game for no other reason than I am a participant in the game. At the end of the game, I give all of my Monopoly money back, no matter how much of I have. I do not pay any legal currency, or give any valuable thing, to receive Monopoly money; I cannot receive any legal currency or any other valuable thing in exchange for Monopoly money.

There is only one way to come into Lindens: One must pay Linden Labs a certain amount of legal currency to obtain Lindens. Of course, one may trade and exchance one's Lindens, so a person can also receive Lindens through other residents of Second Life, but each and every one of those Lindens comes from an initial purchase from Linden Labs. Furthermore, Linden Labs will give legal currency in exchange for Lindens.

If it were that easy for a business or financial institution to avoid all federal and state laws just by converting real money into "play" money, don't you think that every financial instution in the world would be running a truck through a loophole that big?

"We don't do banking per se. However, we will sell you First Bank Notes, which you can sell back to us. We will make investments of your First Bank Notes, loan you First Bank Notes, but because it's play money, we're not subject to any laws and you have no legal remedy for whatever we do with your First Bank Notes."

Your online roleplaying games have virtual, play money, because the creator of that play money is not selling it directly or buying it back. Second Life's Lindens are not like the money in online roleplaying games. Linden Labs sells Lindens for real currency, and buys it back for real currency.

Further, any institution associated with Second Life, dealing in exchange of Lindens, knows that Lindens have real monetary value. If they lose your Lindens, you suffer a financial loss, because you cannot cash out those Lindens with Linden Labs.

Call it virtual all you want, but loss of Lindens is actual financial loss. One doesn't get to avoid the law merely by saying, "Oh, I was just pretending."

Actually, Linden Lab's argument that Linden dollars are not real currency is because you can't show up at their offices and redeem them.

Linden dollars enter the economy in all sorts of ways: stipends, bonuses, fresh currency sales, payments from Lindens themselves, etc. They get destroyed on the other end as they leave the economy via sinks (various forms of taxation). Betwixt being created and being destroyed they slosh around from pocket to pocket.

So, sorry, but Linden Lab won't buy your Linden dollars. They're non-redeemable. However, you can sell them to another resident using a currency exchange.

*rolls his eyes and sighs*

Here's a link regarding the seizure of a bank by the Nazis:
http://www.mercuryinretrograde.org/index.php?title=Lippmann%2C_Rosenthal_%26_Co

Now read this thread which proposes that a resident-owned business be taken and handed over to another resident:
/327/93/201633/1.html

Note that according to the OP of that thread it's the "only possible solution."

Lindens aren't currency per se, but they have value measurable in real world dollars based on how they are used. If Linden Labs takes my real money for my purchase of Lindens, then causes those Lindens to disappear, they cannot hide from legal liability merely by calling Lindens 'play money.'

Of course, the best way to deal with all the problems that come with Lindens is this: Never spend more dollars buying Lindens than you can afford throwing those same dollars in your fireplace. Linden Labs doesn't care about your money; they know there is a lot they can get away with because either their customers can't afford to sue or believe in some myth that they can't sue Linden labs; and even if you do know you have the right to sue and you can afford an attorney, paying attorneys is the practical equivalent of throwing money in a fireplace.

DON'T GIVE ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO LINDEN LABS UNTIL THEY SHOW THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE WITH IT.

Significant means different things to different people- $2 might significant to one person and $2000 might be insignifcant to another. Use the fireplace rule. Don't spend more money than you would be willing to throw in the fireplace.

Sorry... you waived that when you agreed to the Terms of Service:



Okay, now close your eyes and wish really really really hard. Did you manage to wish Section 1.4 of the Terms of Service away? Hmmm... looks like it's still there.

Yes it is




Yes, it's true that a part of the Lindex is funded by LL selling $L directly, however that's not the only way. There is the weekly stipend. Now you can argue that it's the same thing since you have to pay for a premium account to get a stipend, but you'd be incorrect in doing so. The land tier and stipend is the incentive to getting the premium.





No, they won't. Whereas LL does sell a limited amount of $L, they do not buy them back. Other players buy those $L that you sell.





Except for those pesky federal laws about what constitutes legal tender you're completely ignoring because it doesn't do your argument any good to look closely at them



Once again LL does not buy back $L. If you sell $L on the lindex, it's other players who buy it. And there actually are a few other games that sell in-game pretend money btw.



Institutions? Pray tell, what Institutions are associated with Second Life and dealing in exchange for Lindens? In world stores?



It's only a financial loss if you intend to sell the $L. I think what this point hinges on is "Purpose"

Simply put, the Purpose of $L is NOT to sell for RL money, sorry to say. Yes, people do that, sell $L for RL money, but that's a choice as it's a choice for other players to buy it, but it's not the Purpose of $L. The "Purpose" of $L is to have a pretend in world economy.

One final comment about Ginko. Somebody said some residents had a cheek trying to suggest how a man ran his business including that of rescue or takeover by another.

(PS Moderator, I am not offended by the Nazi comment made. I accept it is all part of the banter on BBs and was not aimed in the true sense towards me personally)

I have no regrets in making the suggestions I did. Some folks put in pocket money and on that there is a funny side, as in telling your real life partner you may loose a few bob because of a possible bank failure or at least a delay in obtaining funds. You then explain it was a virtual bank in a game platform run by a guy in Brazil. Well I think that has some comparisons with the helpful guy living in Nigeria who wants to bung you loads of cash to use your bank account.....-

But for those who had serious real life money in Ginko, who cannot afford to loose it and are having to resort to not paying bills or going to money lenders its bad news - and it is compounded by the fact Linden Labs seemed to offer semi official support including comments made by Gov Linden.

If it had happened in the UK I would not be posting about it on a semi public BB, I would have reported it to the police and the FSA

As it stands however whatever happened is outside UK jurisdictions so I can stand aside

I also make no excuse for suggesting alternative people to run Ginko, especially if it can save something for Ginko people from the issues that are mounting

well i did it to save money, and to keep me from going on shopping sprees . but i also did it i the spirit of "the game". it was, for me a place to keep it. virtual money deposited in a virtual bank.

i too find it annoyingly amusing that those who have no money in said bank, are the main ones raising the biggest stink.

You'd better hope that they can, otherwise there's only two things that could happen. Either Second Life would cease to exist immediately, or the in world currency would be done away with. If the latter happened, the only way people could transact is with real money through Paypal or similar services. There would be no more stipends and anyone who didn't have the ability to get a paypal account or credit card would be rendered unable to buy anything in SL, ever. It would suck rocks, and it would probably kill SL even if LL didn't fold.

Your suggestion is to take the property of one resident and turn it over to another resident whom, in one person's opinion (your own), would do a better job of running the enterprise.

The key stumbling block is taking another resident's property. This seems to be the solution for all sorts of things within SL. "If only someone would take the land away from the ad farms." "If only someone would take away my neighbor's land so I don't have to look at his ugly build." "If only someone would take Ginko away from Nic and give it to Anshee."

I have a real problem when a person with nothing at stake in a situation feels the best possible solution is to seize the land, or objects, or business of a resident when no rules have been broken.

Whatever happened to the alternative currency Anshe Chung was going to offer... (the A$ ??) Is that still around?

Wasn't that idea tried back in the 1930's?

No idea. I don't think it ever got off the ground. It would suffer the same liability issues though if the L$ were declared legal currency, at which point Anshe or LL or anyone else would have to be insane to offer in world currency.

I think his actual original sugestion was Anshe BUY Ginko from Nicholas ...

thats not the same thing as giving it to her.

When reading I figured since it would have been a buy out it would have been an optional thing.

I think John was just brainstorming on a way to get it so all thsoe fund holders dont lose all their money.

the argument that lindens are worthless and have no value is a bit of a joke, despite what the tos say. if you disagree please send all your lindens to me. they are afterall worthless.

Most consumer protection laws cannot be waived, and depending on context, fraud and severe levels of negligence cannot be waived. Just because it's in the TOS doesn't mean it's enforceable. Why do lawyers put unenforceable terms in contracts? Because if the other party to the contract believes it's enforceable and doesn't sue you, that's better than having an enforceable contract term.

That's why, at the bottom of the Terms of Service (and in any boilerplate contract), you see: "If any provision of this Agreement shall be held by a court of competent jurisdiction to be unlawful, void, or for any reason unenforceable, then in such jurisdiction that provision shall be deemed severable from these terms and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of the remaining provisions. "



I don't have any particular problems with Linden Labs yet, because I'm not sinking any money into their operation if they are going to cause me problems and make me sue them to get it fixed. But, for anyone who does have particular problems, I don't want them to buy into the myth that the law does not apply to anything connected with Linden Labs or Second Life. Law still applies. In fact, losing a big lawsuit or two might be good learning experience for Linden Labs.

It's only pretend property anyway, right? It says so right in the ToS!

Since Linden Labs Brokers the sales of Lindens between Residents and actively Controls the Exchange rate - Id have to agree.

Cept with the sending you my Lindens part.

yeah was just an idea but honestly I remember clearly a statement made and it was anshe chung involved in some of it that ginko by its rates had to be a ponzi scheme so the likelyhood of her wanting to acquire it even for 1L would be slim to none if she believes its illegal she wont be touching it anytime soon. I dont think her taking it over would stop anything from being lost anyhow but its possible it could be turned into something over time but she would have to write off all the present debts of interest to do it at the very least. That and the fact she just opened a stock exchange of her own, sells lindens already and has another virtual bank that she is trying to link so SL leads me to believe that well why would she take something horribly broken and possibly illegal on at such a high risk and risk the rest of what she already has. It would be smarter to extend some kind of interest free loan to ginko holders or something if she could find out who is actually a customer and who is not using some legitimate means

Great. Now point to the specific paragraph that says the Busy Body Committee can seize anyone's land at anytime for any reason because the BBC doesn't like something.

And that's the problem. A resident's land can only be seized by the Lindens (or in the case of covenant land by the sim owner [and in turn a sim owner's sim can only be seized by the Lindens]).



Oh... yeah... "must sell" is totally different. It's different because the enterprise owner is being forced into the option of selling to only one resident who's been handpicked by the OP in that thread. His other option is that he must sell out to only one handpicked resident. There's another option in there... being made to sell to one handpicked resident. Admittedly, it's the "ONE POSSIBLE SOLUTION," but there's lots of options there.

I personally don't care whether Linden Labs thrives or fails. To the extent that Second Life represents a good idea or an advance, someone else will take it up. I have invested a bit of money playing in Second Life, but only money I don't count on ever seeing again or having anything to show for it. It seems to me that their TOS is a house of cards with an open invitation for a serious lawsuit or prosecution to topple it.

(Ironically, of all the things that I read about Linden Labs doing to customers that could be the subject of a lawsuit- if the money justified it- it's odd that this dubious Bragg thing is the only ongoing lawsuit about which I have heard. Linden Labs's legal team got tossed a real softball with that one. I wonder if they appreciate that.)

If Linden Labs cannot handle the financial responsibility of the services it offers, then it would be better for them to go out of business rather than letting them operate as a giant fireplace for people's money.

Linden Labs should either (a) handle others' property responsibly or (b) get out of the business of handling property. Linden Labs chose to try to make money from this Linden economy. It's certainly not an offer of charity to the world. I don't think they deserve any sympathy. But that's the reality of business, and they are doing business in the real world. It shouldn't advertise this great little internet economy if it can't provide it.

Seriously? Dial back about six notches. The OP is saying he has one chance to get out of this without loosing his underoos. Not that the SL Fascists should haxor his account and transfer it to Anshe. He's just saying - rightly, I think - that theres only one person in SL who has a shot of getting out of this mess, and it isn't him.

Good my friend.

I can see by your post you understand English, no disrespect intended.

"One Possible Solution" is entirely different from "The Only Possible Solution" as I am sure we can all agree.

Nicholas stated on his own BB he had no more US dollar cash to purchase Lindens at present, given that he also said he has spent tens of thousands of US dollars already trying to stop this run. My comments were made in that vein and if that information on Nicholas's comments was incorrect then my own idea would also not be fair. I am not going to cut and paste that comment by Nicholas because it is on his own web site (Ginko financial) and I am not sure that is allowed. However please look for yourself.

If and when any type of bank does become insolvent it is quite normal the interests of the depositors are put before that of the managers, shareholders/owners. Surely we can all understand that if Ginko does go under it will take around 9% of Second Life’s total issued currency (source Linden stats) and in my opinion will have an effect on all who use SL in one way or another.

Therefore any type of brainstorming to prevent that (even on a BB) is worthwhile.